cutting forcing cones in cap and ball revolvers?

[Jubal Starbuck]

     I am wondering if anybody has cut forcing cones in their cap and ball revolvers and if so what kind of results did you have?  Would 11 degrees be proper?

[Johnson Barr]

I've been cutting mine for many years. The 11 degree tool that sells Brownells works very well. Your accuracy will improve greatly.

[Pettifogger]

For cap and ball absolutely not.

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[Fox Creek Kid]

I've been cutting mine for many years. The 11 degree tool that sells Brownells works very well. Your accuracy will improve greatly.

I agree and do all my revolvers IF needed. I've never seen it harm accuracy and in most cases helps some if not greatly. Some of you may remember my worst case scenario from a few years back with one of the first Cimarron/Uberti Transtion Richards conversions. Out of the box it shot SIX INCHES off to one side and as many if not more high!!    That was with BP loads and a 200 gr. bullet. I checked the forcing cone and it was like a mile of pothole filled gravel road!! It took a bit, but slowly & surely the FC tool worked its magic and the next time at the range all shots were dead center at 10 yds!!

[Pettifogger]

     I am wondering if anybody has cut forcing cones in their cap and ball revolvers and if so what kind of results did you have?  Would 11 degrees be proper?

Let's not mix apples and oranges.  The OP asked about cap and ball guns.  Cartridge guns have different considerations.  For shooting round balls you do not want an 11 degree forcing cone.

[Coffinmaker]

I agree and disagree with Pettifogger.  For the most part, Cap Guns should not have forcing cones cut in the breach of the barrel.  the come from the factory with a small bevel.  That should be all you need.  I have had barrels brought to me where some hammock had trouble removing the barrel and hit it with a hammer.  Breach of the barrel slightly out of round.  Cut a shallow forcing cone.

The why not.  For 99 44/100% of us who shoot Cap Guns, we shoot Round Ball.  The equator of the ball is a very tiny area.  that is all that contacts the rifling.  If a forcing cone is cut, the ball may be well clear of the cylinder before it enters the actual rifling.  That gap behind the ball can/will cause horrendous blow-by.  Coating the cylinder face and breach end of the barrel with fouling and reducing velocity.  Not a real good idea. 
Guns intended to shoot bullets, can benefit from a forcing cone.  11 degrees is not "magic" but works as well as anything else and is commonly recommended.  Regardless, cutting the forcing cone too deep in a cartridge gun is not conducive to stellar performance.

Coffinmaker

[Pettifogger]

Coffinmaker, I don't see any disagreement. 

Your explanation is spot on.  With a round ball you want the ball to hit the rifling before the major diameter of the ball has left the chamber.  With an 11 degree forcing cone the ball is actually in the air and not touching anything for a short distance.  Bad fouling and does not help accuracy.

[Fox Creek Kid]

...Regardless, cutting the forcing cone too deep in a cartridge gun is not conducive to stellar performance...

There is one exception to this rule:  Taylor throating. I knew a Federal judge who bought a used S&W Model 25-5 that had huge oversized chambers, as many did (the gun, not the judge  ). They miked at circa. 0.460"!! It wouldn't keep six shots on a garbage can lid at 15 yds. The local 'smith had a Taylor throating tool and used it on the gun. A few weeks later I saw the test target with the same handloads and they were damn near a ragged hole at the same distance!! It made me a believer.

As regards cap 'n balls, the round ball is no longer a perfectly round ball after seating. It does have some "driving band" area on it. This would be a great test for one of you ol' duffers to conduct when you're not playing golf.    Take a cap 'n ball that doesn't shoot all that well and then chamfer the FC to see what happens. I know 'rifle' who posts here does it on his. At the least, it makes the FC area easier to clean which is in & of itself a good thing.

[Johnson Barr]

My 45 years shooting percussion revolvers can not be dismissed. Nor can the stack of winning certificates shooting in Pistoleer category. The most recent being the Ruckus at Raccoon Forks held in Nebraska at the Blue River Regulators range in September 2014. Placing first was meaningless to me; I shot the two day, ten stage match 'clean' with a pair of 1860's. All my modifications include relieving and polishing the nearly non-existent forcing cone chamfer thus improving the 'out of the box' accuracy of Pietta's. In my early days I used a Dremel tool with a cone shaped stone but, then after college became gainfully employed and stared buying good tools from Brownell's. Fouling has never been a problem because I use a Powder Inc. loading stand and take down my revolvers on every stage to load the cylinder and swab the bore. Not all of the 38 percussion revolvers I own have been modified by relieving and polishing the forcing cones but, every one I use to compete in WAS matches has been. Do what you think best and don't pet the dog.

[Pettifogger]

This is where I get confused.  First we are talking about "cutting an 11 degree" forcing cone.  Now we are talking about "relieving and polishing."  To me those are not the same thing.  On some barrels the rear face isn't square.  After I have squared them up I often do some "relieving and polishing."  However, I would never cut an 11 degree forcing cone.  As noted by the previous poster, do whatever you think best.  Advice on these wires is worth exactly what you pay for it.  

[Gus Walker]

   I put a slight champher.not a forcing cone really.on all my cap and ballers. I also champher each chamber.

[treebeard]

In the NSSA where they shoot cap and ball revolvers the individual competition is on standard 25yd and 50yd black bulls.
To medal you have to score in the the high 40's at least and 49 and 50's are not uncommon. All the winning shots had
their cones cut for the 11 degree. The Late and very great gunsmith Tom Ball made revolvers that would shoot perfect scores from
Ransom rests and his revolvers were all coned. When I consulted him on my Euroarms Remington he told me that the single
biggest improvement to a stock revolver was a target cone.The reason as I recall for the target cones is that the gentler slope
would guide the ball into the rifling and make up for minor imperfections in the timing of each individual charging hole. That
stock revolver would consistently shoot in the high forties our of 50 possible. I was never good enough to get a 50 but could
get close on occasion when I had a very good day.

[Jubal Starbuck]

     
     Thank you all for your input.  Most interesting and informative.


     Jubal Starbuck

[Montana Slim]

I'll add that ALL my Pietta C&B revolvers have forcing cones added with the Brownells 11 degree forcing cone tool.
A few of my Uberti's have been modified, too....including my favorite pair of 1860's, which have proved to shoot very reasonable groups and in my best days of CAS, hitting a playing card with 5 shots at 50 ft was common...I used to pass signed cards out to kids at reenactment gunfight shows. I have recently modified a Pietta Spiller & Burr with before/after groups which has shown good improvement.

My unfired Colt Cavalry set..no, I haven't cut...nor my Colt 2nd gen 3rd Model Dragoon which is not NIB.

I do not routinely cut revolvers, such as my antiques, nor my Uberti 1860 RMs, or Open-top (all .44s) as these revolvers have smooth, even forcing cones and have proven performance that suits me.

Several of my C&Bs have also had their crowns smoothed...actually added crowns to these problem children as a rough bore at the muzzle is hard on accuracy.

Just my opinion...and a few things I've picked up along the way at work.

Slim