Spencer M1865 extractor - "Moore Push" patented 1912

[Perseo]

Greets:

I'm new in town.  I bought a decent M1865 Carbine, s/n 101xx, 6 rifle grooves, no mfr named on it. 

First time I looked inside, I found something curious.  The extractor is stamped on one side "Moore Push Pat. Dec. 31-1912 50lbs"

The mounting hole for the extractor looks deformed and the screw head is kind of a wreck.  It seems to function OK with Spencer 56-50 rounds labeled as such but not with some 56-50 the brass for which was Winchester .348. 

I will see if I can post a photo.

Any information on this would be of interest.  Should I replace this part and expect better results with the .348 brass?

Thanks

[Perseo]

Photo of the extractor with patent date of 1912 attached:



                                        (Photos Added by Two Flints)

[Herbert]

Fist thing I noticed is that the block is not fitted for the spring asisit extractor (some very early 1865s dis not have this feature,but with the serial number on your carbine I would expect it to be there)The extractor looks to me to be a home made copy of the original 1860-65 long blade extractor(what the pattern number is for you would have to check with pattern office records )348 converted brass woks well in Spencers with the Lane type extractor but the rim is too small to work with the blade extractor reliably.You could replace the extractor but if it is working why bother,having no adress is also a bit of a mistory,a lot of Sprinfield re-finished Spencers had the adress polished of but thes would have a spring asist extractor and a Stabler cutt-off,a few more pictures of the top of the action and a full lenth photo would help

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[Perseo]

Photos, which may help the discussion.  Worst case, its eye candy . . .

[Perseo]

More

[Perseo]

And the rest.

[Perseo]

Herb:

You are a sharp cookie.

Here is a link to "Moore Pushless hangars patented Dec. 31, 1912."  For hanging up heavy things.\

http://www.etsy.com/listing/67853700/vintage-full-box-of-moore-push-less

[Herbert]

Your carbine is a early Spencer 1865 carbine that has be referbished by Sringfield,it apears to have the Springfield type Stabler cutt off fitted,if there is no square cutt-out for cutt-off  in the lower block it is a replacment block(most likly from a 1860 Spencer),if the cutt-out is there it is the first Springfield re-furb or 1865 Spencer I have seen that the spring asist extractor was not fitted

[Perseo]

Here's where I display my newness.  I bought the Spencer a week ago; before that, I had only seen one for real one time (early 1990's, on display at the Log Cabin Shop in Medina, Ohio, for sale for $1300.  I had "non-buyer's remorse" for close to two decades and finally bought a Spencer.)

You said "f thre is no square cut-out for cut-off in the lower block it is a replacement block . . . ."  What am I looking for to find the square cut-out?

I was trying to figure out how the Stabler cut-off actually facilitates single shot loading, and could not really get it.  That may be a clue that the cut out is not there (or evidence of my newness).

Also, I see references to the fact that the magazine follower on the 1865 was improved from the 1860.  What is the difference I would look for to confirm which version I have.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom.     

[Two Flints]

Information on the Stabler Cut-Off Switch, scanned from the Marcot book.  May be of some to you.






                                                 (Photos Added by Two Flints)

[Perseo]

Thanks so much Two Flints and Herb.  This is a fun exploration.  I probably would be happier if the carbine is not a Mr. Potatohead, but if I make it to age 148 I probably will have some replacement parts too (heck, I already do).

Here is a picture which I am fairly certain shows no cut-out for the Stabler cut-off.  I think that makes it a Stabler breech lock (an invention no one needed).

That makes Herb's notion likely, that somewhere along the line the lower breech block (or more) got replaced with an earlier part, perhaps an 1860 -65 version.  Is it a fact that M1860 spencer actions can be swapped into an M1865 carbine?

My seller told me that the Stabler cut-off had been missing, so he had bought a replacement (reproduced part).  He had the gun for near 20 years, he said. 

 

[DJ]

You wrote: "Also, I see references to the fact that the magazine follower on the 1865 was improved from the 1860.  What is the difference I would look for to confirm which version I have."

On the butt-end of the follower there is a tab about two inches long that you rotate 90 degrees to lock and unlock the follower.  On the 1860 model, the back surface of this tab (the surface that would be against your shoulder when you aim) is smooth--if the follower is a tight fit in the gun, it can be difficult to rotate the tab to unlock the follower, because your thumb will slip on the smooth surface.  In the 1865 and later models, this tab has grooves cut in it to give your thumb a little purchase when you rotate it.

--DJ

[Perseo]

Thanks DJ.  Mine's an ergonomic 1865.

[Herbert]

Your block certinley seems to be a replacment 1860 block,you can get a replacment 1865 lower block with the spring asist and cutt for the cutt-off from S&S(could probley trade for your lower 1860 block),I would do this as I have found the cutt-off to be very handy when hunting,I use it if my fist shot does not need a follow up so I do not need to look for ejected brass,over the years it has saved many cases that otherwise would have been lost,very handy in the days when you had to form brass from other cases which took time and money,not so impotant these days with56-50 Starline brass and 32ga shot shells being available at reasonable prices

[Perseo]

Thanks again Herb, this is totally interesting to me.

I had checked out S&S, and saw lower breech blocks for 1865s.  One question:  Are their parts originals from way back when?  It seems amazing (unbelievable?)  that they could have an inventory of parts from the 1860s. 

[Herbert]

Most of S&S Spencer parts are original,I belive these came from a very large sale of parts that Banemans had from goverment sales after the civil war and up to the early 1900s,they bought parts and somtimes compleet wepons by the pound for only a few cents ,so they acumlated a huge inventory which was never completly sorted out untill the 1960s when it was again sold of at auction from what I have been told.If you do decide to get the proper lower breach block,make shore to tell them it is for a 1865 with the Stabler cut-off,you will also need the model 1865 spring and screw for the spring asist long blade extractor,probley would not hert to get a new long blade extractor and screw as well even if only as a spare

[Perseo]

Herbert:

Your advice is very sound.  I am convinced that for not a whole lot of money I can restore my 1865 to its 1865-ness, which probably adds more value than it would cost (my heirs will thank me, cause I doubt that I am going to ever sell it.)  I am happy to say that I did not overpay for the gun to begin with, and would buy it again knowing what I know.

Thanks again. 

 

[Two Flints]

Perseo,

  Keep this thought, as you go forward with your "repairs"

"My biggest worry is that my wife, upon my demise, will sell my Spencer collection  for what I said I paid for it."   

Two Flints