original loadings for 44-40 in black powder

[Tater Pickens]

I would like to load as close as possible to the original loading for the original BP 44-40's. I don't have a scale or chrono but just a simple single stage RCBS outfit and a Lyman powder measure. I have some Schutzen 2F powder and some of springfield slims big lube 44's.

Is the 40 on the powder adjustment scale pretty accurate to the original using the Schutzen 2F. When I use that setting it fills the case completely up and I compress it just so the bullet will touch the powder.

Was the original cartridge loaded with 2f?

As I say I don't have a scale and I read on this site that different powders will measure different when weighed on a scale.

Can any of you fellas who have much more experience and knowledge about such matters give me your opinions?

Thanks,

Tater

[Pettifogger]

You can't really duplicate the original loading as the cartridge case itself is different.  The old cases were balloon head and held more powder.  I am not a big proponent of squashing BP into a solid pellet just so you can get more powder in the case.  The power weight also varies (and varied in the old days) from powder brand and lot to powder brand and lot so don't worry about the actual weight.  Be more concerned with the volume.  Just fill the case so you will get 1/16" to 1/8" compression and you will get basically the same results in the modern solid head cases as you got with the old balloon head cases.

[Blair]

Pettifogger,

I very much agree with your overall statement.
Bullet weight can also have a great effect as well.
My best,
  Blair

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[w44wcf]

Tater Pickens,

As the pards have indicated, the early balloon head cases held more powder than modern brass......but having examples of early brass, I find the difference to only be about 2 grs.

I have dissected s number of original .44-40 cartridges and found that the compression ranged anywhere from .20" to .24" on the average 40 gr. powder charge.

My lot of Schuetzen FFG is several years old and with the Lyman measure set at 40 grs. it dispenses the following actual weights of powders.......

Swiss FFG - 40 grs.
Diamondback FFG - 39.5 grs.
Schuetzen FFG - 37 grs.
KIK FFG - 36 grs
GOEX FFG - 36 grs.
Old Enysford FFG - 36 grs.

Is your powder of a recent lot....within the past two years?

w44wcf

[Tater Pickens]

thanks guys for you input.

I realize that the current cartridge cases are different from the old balloon style case. I was trying to see if I could get 40 grains in the new cases, realizing of course that the powder would need to be compressed more than the original.

Was the original powder 2f?

w44wcf, thanks for answering one of my original questions about the accuracy of the reading on the Lyman scale. The schutzen powder I have is from a recent purchase, april of this year from Powder Inc, and if I am reading your post correctly it is possible that a newer lot such as mine may meter differently than an older lot such as yours and if I were loading your powder I would need to add 3 grains to get the actual 40. This would overflow my case so I quess if I am getting somewhere in the 37 grn area then that is about as close as I can get.

As far as compression goes I use the North Georgia mountains "near bout" method. I don't have any high tech tools 'cept maybe my caliper so what I do is I measure from the base of Slims 200 grain Mav 44 to the crimp groove which reads .335 on my caliper and 5/16 on my ruler. I mark on a wooden dowel with a ball point pen a mark at 5/16 so considering the width of the ball point pen mark this is "near bout". I don't know how others do their measuring of compression but this is how I do it.

I set my compression die to where it compresses the powder to the 5/16 depth from top of the case so as my bullet will touch the powder when seated. I check this with my dowel.

Thanks again for your insight.

Tater

[wildman1]

Shuetzen and Swiss are both more difficult to compress than Old E. You may have better luck duplicating an original load with Old E as far as velocity goes. WM

[FriscoCounty]

Old E is a less dense powder - more air gaps per cc of powder than Shuetzen or Swiss.   You would need compress Old E by about 11% to get to the same density as uncompressed Swiss. 

Don't know about the fining of Swiss, but Diamondback FFFg has a fair amount of FFFFg in it, which fills up the air gaps. 

[w44wcf]

Tater Pickens,

The reason I asked about how recent your lot was....because, as I have been informed, the more recent lots of Schuetzen were going to have 10% more ballistic strength than the older lots like mine.  I don't know about the density of the new vs old because I don't have any to compare.

In looking at my notes, I did load 40 grs. by weight of Schuetzen FFG (older lot) into a REM-UMC balloon head case (holds 2 grs more than current brass) by dumping the powder slowly into the case by holding the pan several inches above the funnel to settle the powder.

Average velocity with a 210 gr (427098) bullet was 1,210 f.p.s.   With the newer lot of Schuetzen, if the 10% ballistic strength boost is correct, then 40 grs by weight would =  original 44-40 ballistics of 1,300 f.p.s.

Based on that, 37 grs by weight of the recent Schuetzen FFG would probably be around 1,250 f.p.s. or thereabouts.

Winchester 1891 catalog....
"In reloading .32, .38 and .44 W.C.F. cartridges use……..
 American Powder Mills’  “Rifle Cartridge, No. 4”
Hazard Powder Company’s  “Kentucky Rifle, F.F.G.”
E.I. DuPont, de Nemours & Co.’s  “DuPont Rifle, F.F.G.”
Laflin & Rand Powder Co.’s   “Orange Rifle Extra F.F.G"


w44wcf