Senior duelist competitive time?

[jrdudas]

I am new to CAS and am shooting in the Senior class.  Since I shoot my pistols with only one hand, I believe that I am in the Duelist category.  Is that correct?  At a practice shoot one of the long-time shooters suggested that I shoot duelist.  He felt that this would put me in a much smaller class.  I  was only using my weak-hand to initially help position my pistol in my strong hand and then making all my shots without support from my weak-hand.  Since that practice I have stopped using my weak-hand. 

I am really more interested in accuracy than speed, but I have noticied that my times are significantly slower than almost everyone else.  I have shot in two complete events and my best single stage time so far is about 68 seconds.  There was another shooter there who had about the same amount of experience as me.  He was shooting two-handed and his times were averaging about 40 seconds.  It seems that shooting duelist will inherently result in longer times because of the movement necessary when cocking and realigning the pistol.  Am I correct in this assumption?  Out of the 12 stages that I have shot 9 or 10 of them have been clean.  I don't feel like I am going especially slow when I'm shooting, and the folks shooting in the high 30's and low 40's don't seem to be shooting a lot faster than me, but the timer doesn't lie.

So here's my question;  can anyone out there who shoots duelist provide an estimate of what a competitive time is for one stage - (10 rifle, 10 pistol, 4 shotgun).

Thanks,  JR


       

[Foothills Drifter]

Howdy......
Well....competive time depends on who shows up! There ain't no such thing. A time that puts you in first place at one shoot will put you in fifth place or lower at another. I shoot duelist (I got 4 more years to be a senior) I have had close to the same time comming in second as I have had comming in sixth or lower.

Good shootin......
Vern...

[Camille Eonich]

hey jr!  Welcome to CasCity and to the fine sport of CAS!

Having only shot two matches be patient....you'll start speeding up as you shoot more.  If you feel as though you're shooting as fast as others but your times are still slower then take a look at your transitions, the time spent not shooting.  When you have to move from one spot to another do you walk or do you run?  When you change guns are both hands doing something or do you wait until you get one gun put away before you start for another one.

Example : Stage calls for shooting pistols back to back...while you holster one gun the other hand should be going for the other gun. 


Here's a good write up on practicing transitions.  http://www.kimandbarrymckenzie.com/Dig%20Em%20Deeps%20Hints%20and%20Tricks/DigEms10Points.htm


If you're transitions are good you can really drop a lot of seconds off your stage time.

[jrdudas]

Camille,

Thanks for the link;  lots of good stuff there.   I'm sure that my transitions can use some work.  If I can improve my transitions and also solve an occassional feeding problem with my rifle I'm sure my times will improve.

JR

[Doc Shapiro]

Competitive time?  As in world class competitive or state level or local level?

At world class competitive, from the EOT scores, mid to upper 20's.  Everything else is relative to where you are.

Practice without a plan is just throwing lead downrange.

Doc

[Prof. Bullspit]

There are several Senior Duelists around here that can shoot a 10, 10, 4+ stage with a little movement in 25-35 seconds.  There are a couple of not-yet senior duelists that can do it in 20-25 seconds. 

For the "still human" among us, duelist stage times for this scenario are more like 30-40 seconds. So I'd say anything in the 35 second range is darn competitive.

[+draw]

Howdy pard, and welcome to the fire.
I helped a friend of mine, in his mid-60's to start Cowboy Shooting.  His average times were in the 60-80 second range.  And although he had shot very few matches, it bothered him to finish in last place every match.  It got me thinking about where I could help him speed up, even though he puts very little time into practice, even at home.   I was timing him one day when the stage called for a pistol to rifle transition.  I noticed that there was almost 20 seconds between his last pistol shot and his first shotgun shot.  Then, if he had to shoot another two shotgun targets, there was 15 seconds to unload the shotgun, reload and then fire.  He shot a double barrel.

I tried his shotgun and it was the stiffest, hardest to use, Russian-made piece of junk I had ever picked up.  I couldn't convince him to send off his gun to be worked on, but I did convince him to change to a '97 Repro.  His times improved by 20 seconds a stage immediately.  For that cowpoke, who uses box-stock guns and doesn't care to practice, that change made a distinct improvement, as he just can't handle the double.

I finally convinced him to let me change out the springs on his Vaqueros, and he likes it better now... and maybe as he grows more confident and comfortable he'll think about practicing.  I've offered to practice with him, loan him a timer, etc.  Maybe that will come in time.

[jrdudas]

Since several folks have mentioned "practice", I must admit that so far I have not practiced much.  I am a member at an indoor shooting range but I have never seen anyone there practicing for CAS events.  Not sure the range folks would be comfortable with that.  That being said, where do most CAS shooters practice.  The club that I have been shooting at is about 50 miles from my home and is not manned unless there is a shoot going on.  They do have a once-a-month Wednesday shoot that becomes a "practice" event if too few shooters show up, but other than that I have not heard about any scheduled practices.  I live out in the country and can probably get away with practicing with my .22's, but not with the shotgun and the .38's.

So, where do folks practice for CAS events.

JR
   

[+draw]

One way to practice is in your own home with dummy rounds.  Doc Shapiro has an excellent book "Breaking the Shot" that deals with practice.  An excellent senior shooter, Red Cent, puts in an hour of practice on transitions and muscle memory during TV time, every night.

A suggestion... much time can be carved off by practiced transition, loading and firing of the shotgun.  First, make sure your shotgun will open easy and stay open.  Also, that it will easily shuck empties.  If not, let the tender ministrations of a gunsmith who knows "cowboy guns" make it into a gun that works for our purposes.

Then, making sure there is no live ammo anywhere around... strap on your guns, and stage your open and empty shotgun nearby.  With pistol on target, holster and move to the shotgun, pick up shotgun and load two.   Did you holster cleanly?  Did you start for the (dummy) shotshells immediately or waste time and go for them after you reached the shotgun.  Are you able to pull two cleanly or are you fumbling?  Can you get two shells into the shotgun almost without looking?  All of this can be practiced without stepping foot out your door.

But, make sure you are using dummy rounds and there is no live ammo anywhere around!

Later on, when you are really trying to become competetive, buy yourself a timer.  After you've mastered basics, you don't know if you are improving without a timer to tell you.

Speaking of pistols, can you pull your pistol without looking, and get it on target almost instinctually?  Practice a clean draw and first shot at home.
Again, make sure there is no live ammo anywhere around.   You'll be suprised how many shooters pull their gun and then try and figure out where the target is in relation to their sights.  You should be able to pull and be almost on target.  Only way you can do this is enjoyable hours at home, drawing and getting the sights on that first target.  Might even be the 'bad guy" on your favorite western.

Make sure there is no live ammo anywhere around!

If your a two-hand shooter, can you holster that first pistol and draw that second pistol almost simultaneously?  If you're a one hand shooter can you holster cleanly, pivot and draw the second cleanly without breaking the 170?  practice at home.

Almost anything we do, short of sending a round downrange, can be broken down, analyzed, and practiced for smoothness and dexterity in the comfort of your own air-conditioned home.

Make sure there is no live ammo anywhere around!

Pick up a copy of "Breaking the Shot" at http://www.jspublications.net/BreakShot.html

hope this helps,
McC

[jrdudas]

Excellent suggestions, I'll give them a try.

Thanks,  JR