Quick question on lined loop holsters . . .

[bedbugbilly]

Skeeter Lewis did a post on his lined loop holster and it being too stiff with the liner so he needed to use an attached loop to the skirt . . . . which raised a question in my curious and somewhat warped mind.     All of my loop holsters that I've done so far I've inserted the bucket through the loop during the "wet forming/moulding" stage - the bucket is wet enought hat it is pliable and will easily bend to get into the loop.  But, they have all been "unlined" holsters, not lined like Skeeter is talking about and the problems he is having with it.   Skeeter says his is too stiff to get through a loop due to the liner - and I'm not questioning him on that or being critical or anything like that so bear with me.  I'm thinking of doing a lined holster down the road and was going to use about 8 oz leather for the initial holster and then line it with some 4 oz leather that I have, putting the epidermis side of the liner towards the inside of the bucket.  This would give me a total thickness of around 12 oz which is what I normally use for an unlined holster.  I was going to glue the liner to the holster with contact cement and then the entire edge will be top stitched other than the side seam.  I know that there can be a little "bunching" at the inside fold of the bucket.  My question is, if I construct it in this manner with contact cement and those weights of leatheer, will I have a problem when it comes to inserting the bucket through the loop?  If I do the insertion during the wetting process to mold the holster, will it be pliable enough (normally) to make the bend or should the holster be designed to have an "attached loop"?  What do you use to glue the lining with - is there a better adhesive than the contact cement?  Thanks!      And good luck Skeeter with yours - I hope you'll show us some pictures when you get it done.  Thanks!

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

  I use Tanners Bond contact cement, for all my liners, but that's your choice to make, other cements work well too, one thing you need to remember when lining a loop holster, is the cuts for the loop will usually need to be lengthened to allow for the difference in the new thickness of the bucket and skirt if the skirt is lined also, if you don't do this, it can some times be impossible to get the bucket through the loop, If I know my pattern was made for 9/10 ounce leather, in order the stay in that pattern without having to enlarge it, I'll use a combination of leather thicknesses that will equal what the master pattern calls for, if I don't have what I need leather wise, then a new larger pattern will have to be made, I usually add 3/16" all around the pattern, and I don't line thick saddle skirting, having the leather in a holster too thick doesn't work well, and doesn't look good either, IMHO.

   tEN wOLVES

[Skeeter Lewis]

Billy, as I say, this was my first lined holster so I can't speak with authority. I used PVA glue for the lining so I would have more play. I thought that cement might grab the leather too fast. 10W uses cement but he has more experience. Also I shaped the holster first so that the lining went in without any wrinkles. I cut the lining extra wide and I'm glad I did.

My holster wound up being a little too thick, maybe 11 - 12 oz. With a lining, as I said, it's tough to bend. In future I'll keep the combined thickness to around 9 oz. Should be easier to bend it that way.

Sure, I'll post pics when I'm done.

Skeet

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[Cliff Fendley]

This is one of the reasons you see buckles on the buscadaro and other rigs of hollywood and fast draw persuasion.

The true Mexican loop design doesn't lend itself well to the very thick holsters like are being made today, period holsters were not nearly as thick as many people are assembling today. Most were around 8-9oz and I've seen many closer to 7oz. Most lined ones (which were fairly rare)I've seen were no more than around 8-9oz total. Most were assembled from skirting leather that was somewhat supple. There was no reason for a saddler to make a gun rig thicker than he made his saddles.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

   Cliff, I've also made a few Cheyenne and Mexican loop holsters that I lined, but didn't line the skirt, the lining just went over the belt and down about 2" and sewed across, leaving the rest of the skirt a single layer, this works well and better than lining the whole skirt, when some one wants a bucket lined but you don't want the bulk of a heavy skirt and the trouble a lined loop can give you if the weight of the leather is over 10 ounce, it's a compromise that can accommodate your needs and still look good.

          tEN  

[bedbugbilly]

Thanks fellas for your advice, experience and suggestions.  All great points - most of which I hadn't thought of!     I say that I normally use about 10 to 12 oz for holsters - but what it boils down to is what I can find when I'm buying leather.  I don't always put a gauge to it as I can pretty well tell by looking and feel.  I did buy a piece a while back that was quite irregular as it seemed to be anywhere from 8 oz to 12 oz or more in spots - but, leather is a natural product!  The first loop holster I made was for my New Vaquero - I used a piece that was probably around 8 - 9 oz.  It was one off of the West Texas patterns.  When I was done with it, I felt that it was too thin, but the more that I fool around with it, the better I like the weight of the leather and how the gun "holsters".  Most of my holster work has been for "modern" pistols - I like a "stiff" holster for my semi-autos and modern revolvers and the 10 to 12 oz. gives me that.  But, it brings up another question.  Not that I'm playing Hop Along Cassidy or anything like that, but how "stiff" do those of you that compete in CAS like your holsters to be?  Most originals that I've examined are pretty pliable - I figured from use, oiling, etc.  As the one gentleman stated, the original loop holsters were made of lighter leather and that is what I've noticed on most of the originals I've looked at in person and have been able to feel and handle.  In competition, is there a preference or difference for stiffness (for want of a better word) of say a SAA with a 5 1/2" inch barrel or shorter over a BP with a longer barrel such as a Remington NA or a Colt Army - either BP or converted? 
Thanks again for the advice and comments - all greatly appreciated and food for thought if and when I do a lined one.   

[Cliff Fendley]

10W, that is a good way to do the lined ones. Of the few original lined holsters I've been able to study most were done that way. I have never seen an original 19th century Cheyenne style holster with a lined skirt. Not to say there weren't any but I've never seen one.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

10W, that is a good way to do the lined ones. Of the few original lined holsters I've been able to study most were done that way. I have never seen an original 19th century Cheyenne style holster with a lined skirt. Not to say there weren't any but I've never seen one.

  That's true Cliff, but like everything there are the exceptions, even today I get request for lined loop holsters, I did see a few while I was in Texas back in the 1980, they were late eighteen hundreds to early nineteen hundreds, and they were lined with brain tanned deer skin, one was what looked like thin calves skin, and one was pig, they were pretty scuffed up from use but not in bad condition either, I always a half lining if they insist on having the lining, and it looks much better IMHO.

          tEN

[Slowhand Bob]

I seldom line the 'old style' loop holsters but when I do, lighter leathers are used and I do it very similar to my unlined from there.  Ten Wolves gives you about as good a method as I know of, if you are using heavy enuff body leather to support the skirt.  Another technique I have seen frequently is to leave the liner off just the loop portion.  This leaves extra support for the skirt, if you are using reduced weight leather for lining purposes,  and leaves the loop plenty light for stretching around the holster  BUT....  Remember the more the loop is stretched and  pulled on the more any tooling on the loop will suffer!  I like to keep some in-between weights of leather on hand to handle special combinations and needs as large scale thinning/splitting is a real problem for me and the cost of machines to handle it are out of sight.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

      Good point Bob, I've seen that done too, leaving the lining off the loop, when I picked up this holster, which was a three loop, the back of the skirt was solid, there wasn't any loop cuts in it, then I turned it over to see where the finished side of the loop and the liner were separated, it was a nice neat job, and really looked nice for its age, which was from the late eighteen hundreds.

      tEN wOLVES 

[Cliff Fendley]

10W, those original holsters that had the skirt lined, were they integral loop and was it stitched around the loop slots or what? Wondering how they secured the lining to the skirt.

[Buck Stinson]

Personally, I don't ever remember seeing an old original holster that had the skirt lined.  As a veteran collector of vintage maker marked gun leather, none of the old saddle shops I know of, ever made their gear that way.  Lining was usually draped up over the top of the skirt and came down the back to a spot just above the cut for the top loop.  It has been my experience that saddle makers of the period used only one of three materials for lining their holsters.  The most popular lining material was buckskin of the 1 1/2oz. thickness.  The next most popular was pool table cloth and last was corduroy cloth.  Although these last two were used, buckskin holsters out number cloth lined holsters probably 10 to 1.  Old time saddle makers did not use pig skin for lining holsters until long after the turn of the 20th century.  I my collection, I have several very early hand carved Slim Jim holsters made by and marked E.L. Gallatin, Denver.  They are lined with turquois colored buckskin.  One of these is pictured on page 85 in Packing Iron. I have also had Gallatin double loop holsters from the 1875 period that were lined with red pool table cloth.   By the way, the most popular weight of saddle skirting used in old saddle shop made holsters was 8-9 oz.  Hope this will help.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

  That's great information Buck, thanks for chiming in, The holster I saw that I thought was pig might have been deer, I really couldn't tell for sure, it was old and dirty, the one was no doubt deer, and the other look to be very thin calves skin, but who knows, I saw these at saddle shop off of I-40 in Amarillo Texas, they had a display case with odd western trappings, which I found very interesting.

   Cliff, the holster in question, had the thin lining sewed to the main body of the skirt, and the loop just popped out by itself, it was a neatly put together holster, and it really threw me when I looked at the back and didn't see any slits cut, it was completely covered, I've never seen another one like it, and always thought that was a great design, one of these days I try to make one that way, just for the fun of it.

         tEN wOLVES 

[Skeeter Lewis]

I've noticed a couple of fully-lined Mexican loops in Packing Iron, on pp 98 and 133. I would guess they're made of light leather.

I'm sure Buck is right about the rarity of such holsters though.

(Buck, it would be good to see more of you over here. Great web-site.)

Skeet