Trapdoor Carbine by Pedersoli

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Black River
The targets were not injured in the filming of the video . I have been doing my home work on the trapdoor and the Little Big Horn . Have read some real interesting articles . The 7 th Calvary lost 5 Companies and the Indians lost 50 to 60 Braves . Some estimates say the ammo was the problem heads separating and men having to dig out the rupture cases . A know fact that no marksmanship Training  was a big problem . Do you think 20 rounds a year is enough to stay proficient ? Wonder where Custers
50 caliber Remington is today ? After the Little Big Horn wonder what Reno thought about the Trapdoor , he was on the board for the rifle trials that picked the Trapdoor . 

[River City John]

You're right, it was the copper cases that were too soft- the breech heated up and fouled after a few rounds fired, when the copper cases expanded they stuck tight and the extractor was just shearing through the head.
The Army afterwards went to brass cases which were harder, but still for awhile there was a special 'extractor tool' that was issued to the troopers with trapdoors.

It was not the Trapdoor that was inferior. Many articles point out that a myriad of factors contributed to the defeat having nothing to do with the merit of the weapon. For the most part it was a long range fight until the last moments. Perhaps the men in the heat of battle frenzy and lack of command did not adjust sights, so that by the time a 500 yd. fight quickly closed to a 300 yd.,- then rapidly closer, the sights were not adjusted and the men were firing too high, if they were effectively following fire drill at all. While the Indians had a museum of firearms used that day, there were a higher percentage of repeaters in their use than the Cavalry, by a significant proportion. And from all accounts it seems that Custer was probably thinking in terms of attack up until the last and no real defense was considered except to react to local situations until too late.

By all accounts the Army was pleased with the Trapdoor, - look how long it lasted as a primary arm. And even lived into the turn of the century kept in armory inventories as arms for militia or Guards units. 

[Dr. Bob]

The Army was concerned that the adoption of a repeater would allow the soldier to waste ammunition by firing too much.

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[Dirty Brass]

Black River Smith, to answer your question, the data I've read shows a 45-405-70 with a MV of 1350 fps and ME of about 1600 FP, and the 45-405-55 clocked in at about 1100 FPS. I didn't see any ME data on that load.

It's interesting to note that the early cartridges had an internal boxer type primer crimped into the cases at the head (actually crimped the case walls there), with a rimfire type looking case head. That changed in 1882, along with the metals used for the case itself. Odd looking fellow if I do say so myself. As stated, the 45-500-70 proved to be far superior in ballistics to the 405 gr. bullet and was thus adopted in about 1882 with an actual boxer primed case. Although these rifle loads were at first marked as R or C for carbines (the 405 gr.), in about 1886 they discontinued using cardboard fillers in the carbine loads and simply seated the bullet deeper, thus eliminating the need for the case markings. According to my info, they even substituted smokeless powder in April of 1898, but it only lasted for a few months and went back to black powder as the 30-40 Krag cartridge was in great demand and all resources went into production of that round for the Spanish-American war needs.

These Trapdoor guns and the 45/70 loads have quite a history. I always enjoy reading reports and articles on them

Most of this info came from the book "The 45-70 Springfield  4th Edition - Revised and Expanded" 

[Dirty Brass]

Black River
The targets were not injured in the filming of the video . I have been doing my home work on the trapdoor and the Little Big Horn . Have read some real interesting articles . The 7 th Calvary lost 5 Companies and the Indians lost 50 to 60 Braves . Some estimates say the ammo was the problem heads separating and men having to dig out the rupture cases . A know fact that no marksmanship Training  was a big problem . Do you think 20 rounds a year is enough to stay proficient ? Wonder where Custers
50 caliber Remington is today ? After the Little Big Horn wonder what Reno thought about the Trapdoor , he was on the board for the rifle trials that picked the Trapdoor . 

Interesting enough, from what I've read, the 7th was doomed from the get-go just because of the tactics used in b attle. The indians supposedly were proficient at using the hills and gullies for cover from the lined troops, and they moved quickly, and efficiently stayed at different distances from the troopers, thus making it difficult to "zero in" on them during the battle. They also had quite a few repeating arms at their disposal. The ammo could very well have posed a problem too, as reports hinted that cases were ruptured and/or stuck in breeches. I'm not sure if they actually had marksmenship training out in the field or at the fort at that time, but i would think some degree of training was given since these were new rifles to the soldiers and they would have needed some familiararity training with them. From the shell count at various positions of fire they have been able to find, it was obvious they did get off a lot of rounds. Unfortunately, most never hitting a target. 

[Drydock]

Remember, Reno and Benteen had the same weapons, and dug into a proper defensive perimeter held their ground and survived.  A few months later at Cedar Creek, Nelson Miles and the 5th infantry drove Sitting Bull and nearly 1000 warriors over 20 miles, with the same weapons.  Tactics, tactics, tactics!  THe US Army has a long history of blaming weapons for its tactical failures.

In the age of the BP cartridge, most armys stuck with single shot weapons for a variety of reasons, Simplicity, ruggedness, cost effectiveness, fire control, cartridge power.  However valid their reasons, among such weapons the M1873 and its derivitives were simple, effective and fast cycling weapons, and are among the easiest of all to fire from a prone or entrenched position.

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Howdy Pards
The Trapdoor Carbine was a Good weapon . The copper cases was a problem in the early days . As with all ideas some work and some don't . And the copper cases didn't and that's why we don't use them today . I want to thank everyone for all there input .
As for the Pedersoli Trapdoor Carbine I have fired about 100 rounds through it and all have been black powder . So far NO PROBLEMS

[Tascosa Joe]

I had the pleaseure of attending a staff ride covering the Sioux campaign of 1876 a couple of years ago.  The staff ride was presented by the history department of the Staff College at Fort Leavenworth.  It was very interesting and enlightening.  Oddly enough Custer was one of the few proponents of marksmanship training in the Army at the time.  The real reason Custer lost his fight is he was out numbered by a whole bunch.  Up until the Battle of the Rosebud and the Little Big Horn, the Native American tribes never stood and fought, they always fought a delaying action until their villages could pack up and the women and children were able to escape.  They had Reno pinned down which freed up the 90% of the warriors to engage Custers 200+.  IMO Custers only real mistake was when he saw Reno's attack stall (He was watching from the bluff about a mile or so away) he should have called off his main attack.  His main attack was supposed to be directed at the dependents trying to escape.  I am not a Custer fan or foe, but the man fought the tactics and principles of the time, but he came out 2nd best as he had 236 soldiers agains 3-5K warriors.  Just the thoughts of an old Cav and FA guy.

[Will Ketchum]

I had the pleaseure of attending a staff ride covering the Sioux campaign of 1876 a couple of years ago.  The staff ride was presented by the history department of the Staff College at Fort Leavenworth.  It was very interesting and enlightening.  Oddly enough Custer was one of the few proponents of marksmanship training in the Army at the time.  The real reason Custer lost his fight is he was out numbered by a whole bunch.  Up until the Battle of the Rosebud and the Little Big Horn, the Native American tribes never stood and fought, they always fought a delaying action until their villages could pack up and the women and children were able to escape.  They had Reno pinned down which freed up the 90% of the warriors to engage Custers 200+.  IMO Custers only real mistake was when he saw Reno's attack stall (He was watching from the bluff about a mile or so away) he should have called off his main attack.  His main attack was supposed to be directed at the dependents trying to escape.  I am not a Custer fan or foe, but the man fought the tactics and principles of the time, but he came out 2nd best as he had 236 soldiers agains 3-5K warriors.  Just the thoughts of an old Cav and FA guy.

Thank you Joe, I have been saying exactly the same thing since I first walked the battle field in 1977, 101 years and 1 day after the fight.  I'm also neither a fan nor detractor of Custers, however I have always felt that if he hadn't decided to attack when he did and the foe would have slipped away during the night he would have been court marshaled, for at least negligence or at worst for cowardice in the face of the enemy.

Will Ketchum

[Drydock]

FYI the Ranger weapons discussed were converted Sharps carbines in .50-70.

[Tascosa Joe]

Rowdy:

Do you cast your own bullets?  If yes what mold do you use for the carbine?

T Joe

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Tascosa Joe
No sir , I just order my bullets . The last bullets I got for my Trapdoor was from Powder Inc. they have a 405 grain bullet that's lubed with spg .

Now as Books stated when we first started talking about this , the plan was to get the old trapdoors out and have a reason to use them . So we thought the Trooper Side Match was the way to do that . I will call Books tonight and see what we can come up with ?

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Rowdy,
Where can this rifle be bought? I've looked at Taylor's and Cimarron and neither has it listed. What is the current retail price?
May just have to get one.

Bill

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Bill
EMF is carrying these , I don't know if Taylor's carries these .

[Dr. Bob]

Bill,

On the EMF web site the carbine is listed at $1400 and the Officer's model is $1600.

[James Hunt]

Bill,

On the EMF web site the carbine is listed at $1400 and the Officer's model is $1600.

Sounds like a good use of stimulus money to me - write the white house, they need good ideas!

[Texas Lawdog]

Well then, I want about $3000. of that stimulus money so I can have one of each.  I'm waitin' for my money!

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Howdy Pards
This Carbine is what you need in the Trooper side match .