Type II Richards Cylinder

[Coffinmaker]

I haven't had one into the shop to work on ......... yet.  So, from you folks who already have one, does the Type II Richards have a gas ring cast into the front of the cylinder like the Uberti '51 Navy Conversion and the Open Top??
I can't really tell from pictures I have seen.
One of my customers is curious, before she buys a pair.

Coffinmaker

[Fox Creek Kid]

Yes.

[Coffinmaker]

FCK,

Thanks!!

Coffinmaker

[Abilene]

It is the same part as the Richards-Mason cylinder.  In fact, I think everything but the barrel and ejector is the same (.44/.45 models same as 1860 R-M and .38 model same as '51 R-M though still with '60 round barrel).

[Thai Fighter]

Nothing says it like a picture.

[Fox Creek Kid]

The original Richards conversions did NOT have any form of gas collar. Uberti slyly engineered their integral design whereas one cannot tell unless disassembled. Needless to say, it really helps for us Darksiders. 

[Thai Fighter]

FCK,

I haven't broken out the calipers yet, but I hazard to guess that the cylinder is also quite a bit larger than an actual Colt 1860 "donor" cylinder the Type II is based on as well?  To shoot modern .44 spl or (aghads) .45 Colt I'd think they'd have to be.

[Coffinmaker]

Ah Hummmmmm,

Now it makes me wonder.  My Open Top guns have "all" the calibers on one frame.  I wonder if the Barrel/Ejector assembly from the Type II would swap onto an Open Top??  I doubt the parts are even available yet, but 'twould be interesting. 
It wouldn't look like anything "real" except perhaps an 1861 Conversion, but the Uberti Conversions aren't real copies anyway.  Close, but not exactly.
The '51 Breach Rings are caliber specific and the .44 - .38s don't swap like the Open Top does, but if the alignment pins, arbor bore and barrel bore all align on an Open Top frame ..................
The integral gas ring really does make a difference.  I have several of the old ASM Richards guns with the funky little ring/spacer and they gum up in about 4 rounds.  Have to keep a squirt of break free handy when shooting on the dark side.

Coffinmaker

[Fox Creek Kid]

...I wonder if the Barrel/Ejector assembly from the Type II would swap onto an Open Top?? 

The Type II is a Richards ejector assembly and the '72 OT is a Richards-Mason ejector assembly. Totally different.

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

If anyone is interested.....I have a R/M Cylinder for sale...Exactly like Thai Fighter's photo. .44 colt cal., like new condition.

Bill

[Coffinmaker]

FCK,

I know the ejector assemblies are different and would require getting the barrel and the ejector assembly for the Type II as "parts" to be able to do anything with it.  I may call VTI tomorrow and see if they have the "parts."  I doubt it, but "Saint" Lisa has been known to come up with some real neat stuff!! 

Anybody try sliding the barrel of a Type II on an Open Top Frame or '51 frame yet??  See if the switch is even possible??  Not that I might be tempted to try it .......

Coffinmaker

[Mako]

...
Anybody try sliding the barrel of a Type II on an Open Top Frame or '51 frame yet??  See if the switch is even possible??  Not that I might be tempted to try it .......
Coffinmaker

Coffinmaker,
Just for you I tried the Type II barrel on an 1851 and an 1872 Open Top and threw in an 1860 and a SAA just for grins.  The short answer on fit is..."Yes and No."  I will report a few measurements I took:

                                Cylinder Diameter     Chamber Circle
TYPE II Cylinder             1.667                         1.052
'72 Open Top                1.609                         1.053
1851                             1.530                          .996
1860                             1.608                         1.003
1st Mod SAA                  1.650                         1.045

The chambers match up on the Open Top and the Type II cylinders. BUT...the barrel doesn't fit because the barrel extension on the Open Top is much longer than the Type II.  The Type II extension is .150" long and the Open Top is .287".  The gas shield on the open top is longer to match the barrel extension.  The frame is longer on the Open Top to also accommodate the longer barrel extension.  The effective chamber length on the two cylinders is basically the same.

So in short the Open Top and the Type II cylinder chambers will line up with one another but the barrel extension on the Type II is too short to fit up against the cylinder on the Open Top.  It's a matter of "close, but no banana."

The Type II barrel won't even fit on the 1860 that it is supposed to be a "conversion" of.  The Uberti Type II is an oversized near copy that was sized to allow up to .45 caliber cartridges to fit in it.  It also has features such as the cylinder gas shield which are not accurate.

Unfortunately the Type II is oversize which I can attest to because they don't fit in my form fit holsters.  I can fit 1851s, 1861s, Open Tops and 1860s in those holsters.

Regards,
Mako

[Coffinmaker]

Mako

Thanks for the research.  I am forever swapping parts around on my own and my customers '51 Conversions and Open Tops.  You get some really neat looking guns, if not "exactly" authentic.

My customer did get a con-sec pair of Richards Type II guns.  Picked them up Friday, I got them for work today.  I do mean work.  Both guns looked real nice coming out of the box.  Thats where nice ended.  Neither gun had any barrel/cylinder gap. Barrel breach up tight against the cylinder face.  Good thing both guns were left in the box!!  Neither gun would stay cocked (no bevel on the trigger sear),  Both guns very rough in the hammer slot and inner frame, both guns very rough hand channel, One had very bad burrs on he hammer and protruding firing pin retaining pins.  Dodge Ram truck springs of course.

Had someone taken delivery of these two guns with the intent of playing with them without work, there would have been some major disappointment.

Both guns did clean up very well though.  They will be a lot of fun to play with.  It is interesting to see where Uberti had taken some liberties with mechanical accuracy and come up with some rather nifty looking guns.  From two feet, these guns even look right ......... mostly.

Coffinmaker

[Snake River James]

Coffinmaker:  I have two ASM 1860s, one with the funky removeable gas ring and one without.  The one without the ring will run all day with black powder, but the one with the ring wouldn't go 5 rounds...until I took the ring off.  Now it runs all day too.

[Coffinmaker]

Seth & Snake River,

Ditto and .. well .. Ditto.  I still have 5 of the old ASM conversions laying around.  I like to shoot 'em for Josey Wales matches.
The guns (3) with the little ring won't go 5 rounds of black without gumming up.  The two without the little rings run all day with black. 
The problem is/was the design of the rings.  Rather than relieve the bottom of the breach end of the barrel for a solid ring, ASM cut the ring to fit the "Cone" at the breach end.  To insure the rings fit all, the rings were made with the cutout too large for any.  BP spouge gets under the ring thru the cutout and causes everything to bind.  It was never intended to be a "gas" ring, it was intended to establish head space, which it does, and if shot with smokeless only, works fine.  As everybody has discovered, with black, not so fine.  A shame the guns were so badly made.  Looked really good.  A few even worked.

Coffinmaker

[Fox Creek Kid]

I actually had an Armi San Marco true '72 Open Top in .44 Colt back in 2000. It had a longer cylinder than the Uberti one. It also had the separate headspace ring which was worthless. The gun was a total POS and I sold it on the SASS Wire within a month.