trail boss powder?????

[doc wheelock]

howdy the fire

any one shooting trail boss powder????i tried 50 rounds this am of hand loads in my 1860 with an R & D conversion all shot high at 25 yards...looking for any one who is shooting this to compare notes\

thanks doc

[Mako]

Doc,
I load .38 Spl for my daughter with Trail boss.  It acts pretty much like any other smokeless propellant, it's just much bulkier and probably safer to reload.  I like it because with her loads I can see it in the shell to assure I have charged it before seating the bullet and a double charge would be almost impossible.

You didn't tell us what caliber, barrel length or bullet weight.  I can tell you this, you are experiencing the opposite of the problem that most people have with a light bullet at a relatively high velocity coming out of a handgun sighted in for heavier slow bullets.  Pistols recoil before the bullet leaves he barrel and lightweight high velocity bullets actually hit lower to point of aim.  The question is how was the pistol sighted in the first place? Shorter barrels also tend to shoot lower because the bullet leaves the barrel sooner and is lower in the recoil relative to the sighting plane.

My 1860 Army Percussion Pistols shot 9 inches high at 30 feet feet because they had the original Colt front sight height which is very short and sighted for 75 to 100 yards.  I was constantly shooting over smaller plates when holding on center.  My Open Tops in .44 Colt (200 gr Bullet) shoot about 2" high at the same distance and my .38 Spl Open Tops (158 gr bullet) shoot almost dead on at the distance.  It seems Uberti decided to sight those for realistic CAS distances.

Tell us your barrel length, caliber, bullet weight and load.  I would be willing to bet that Trail Boss has nothing to do with it.  If you're going to shoot the heathen powder in CAS I think Trail Boss is one of your best choices.  You may have to change your load, bullet weight or get a taller front sight to solve your elevation problem.  Maybe we can make a suggestion.

Regards,
Mako

[doc wheelock]

7 inch barrel

45 conversion

7.1 grains under a 160 rnfp

going to use crony next week and up the powder a bit

do like the soft recoil and seeing the powder in the case

thanks for looking

doc

[Four Eyed Floyd]

I used it in my 38's and 357's switched to Holy Black way more fun...boom, smoke, and stink it doesn't get any better!

[litl rooster]

go to a 225 grain bullet and back down to 6.5 grains of Traiboss.  Make 5 or 6 and go up or down a .1 from there.

the IMR Hodgon site recomends 7.0 grains giving you 900fps



http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Listen to what Mako said.

In revolvers, the recoil raises the barrel on firing'  The bullet goes down the barrel while recoil raises it.  If you drive 'em faster, or slower, the two effects cancel each other out

Heavy bullets make it rise faster, but leave the barrel later because they are slower.  Lighter ones cause less rise, and leave earlier, before it has much chance to rise.  Thus;

Heavy bullets print higher at reasonable ranges, and lighter ones print lower.

Your 160 grainers are on the light side of the range of available bullets.  It is something else than your powder choice.  What was the POI with other powders in your revolver?

[Mako]

Doc,
Your loads with a 160 gr. bullet should be light recoiling which would normally make your point of impact low.  Let's talk about that again... When I say it would make your impact low that is a relative term.  It is relative to heavier recoiling loads in the same pistol.  If you shoot a conical bullet weighing 200 to 230 grains at the recommended velocities which would probably be in the 700s (fps) I would expect your point of impact to rise for two reasons.  A greater moment giving you heavier recoil and a slightly slower moving bullet which exits the barrel  later. Sir Charles was right because we usually have to trade bullet weight for velocity.  We normally have to shoot heavier bullets slower to keep the pressures from spiking.  Momentum unlike kinetic energy is simply mass (all discharged material, Bullet, lube, wads, burned and unburned powder) times the velocity, you trade one for the other.  And the momentum of the recoiling pistol is what determines where the bore is pointed when the bullet exits.

IMR's recommended Trail Boss loads for a 160 gr. bullet in .45 Colt run from 7.0 grs. at 903 fps to 8.5 grs. at 1018 fps.  I'm not sure what your muzzle velocity is using a conversion cylinder, you'll have to chronograph it.  The IMR listings are for a "P" type revolver with a 7 ½" barrel.  If your current load is in the low 900s, that is actually "fast" for an 1860 with an equivalent bullet weight and using Black Powder.  You might get it an inch lower by increasing the velocity but you'll be pushing the 1,000 fps (from a revolver) limit imposed for safety by SASS.  Slowing the bullet down will only raise your point of impact, you really can't slow it down much more with a .45 Colt case.  

Your bullet is 20 grains heavier than a .454 ball which is pretty negligible.  My load in an 1860 is 28 grains of either Goex FFFg or Goex Cowboy, a felt wad soaked in a Beeswax based lube and then a 140 gr. Ball.  It is leaving the muzzle at about 860 to 880 fps, this is a fairly standard medium range load for an 1860.  As I wrote before, both pistols were shooting about 9" high at 10 yards.  It doesn't surprise me that your load which is actually very similar to the 30 gr. Load I used to shoot with balls hits high.  I backed off because of the wad adding height to the column and I didn't get appreciably higher velocities or smoke, basically I just got more fouling.

You should be able to go to an even lighter load using .45 Schofield or Cowboy .45 Special brass.  I won't recommend loads for cartridges I don't shoot but I know people are shooting some incredibly low velocity loads with the CB .45 and light bullets.  Perhaps someone will chime in, or you could contact Adirondack Jack who sells the brass.  This might lower your P.O.I.  a bit but your real problem is the front sight is "too short."  As I said before the original design which has been reproduced by the modern clone manufacturers is meant for a ridiculous 75 to 100 yards.  I really don't know what the original factory sighting was, but I have read ranges from 50 to 100 yards.  For this discussion it really doesn't matter because whatever it is, it's too high for CAS range.  Unless you want to hold on the bottom of targets you are ultimately going to have to have a taller front sight installed.  Adding a dovetailed rear on the barrel won't help unless it is lower than the current notch in your hammer.

Holding on the bottom of targets, especially round plates isn't all bad because it is a nice sight picture if you can remember it.  I just have too many years of "dead on" hold drilled into me from previous shooting sports and other activities to not revert when under pressure.

If you want to try BP in your conversion try .45 Schofield or even consider the Cowboy .45 Special Brass.  Just fill that puppy up until you get a nice compressed load.  With CB .45 You'll probably just pass the minimum 15 gr. Black Powder requirement for smoke. You may have noticed I will recommend  BP loads because they are pretty fool proof.  Just fill 'em up and make sure you get compression.

I hope this helps, keep asking and we'll answer if we can.

Regards,
Mako

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Mako is a font of wisdom here, Doc.

I'll only add this.  The front sights were original height when Uberti & Pietta started reproducing them.

It's an historical thing.  It goes something like this:  Back then, only officers (in the Infantry) carried pistols, by "regulation" - the enlisted carried a rifle.  The 1700s tactics still used in the 1800s  were based on rifles that were accurate to about 100 yds, and therefore, an Infantry charge ideally started at about 200 yds.   A soldier of the (un)Civil War was expected to be able to - starting with a loaded rifle,  shoot and reload 3 times in one minute for a total of 4 rounds.  During that same 1 minute, the opposing "charging force", loaded down with weapon, ammo and some equipment, at a fast trot - could cover 100-125 yds.  That put them at about 75 yds. from the other side, where the OFFICERS (and any other few with a revolver) had six more shots, while the riflemen, if not done already, could put the bayonet on their rifles and possibly trot out to meet them.  You can see why the carnage happened - 1700s Tactics used, based on smoothbore weapon's accuracy while 1800s accuracy capable weapons were used to fight: rifles accurate to 300-400 yds and pistols accurate to 50-80 yds! - makes for SO MANY killed and especially wounded as happened back then.  Such a shame.  It's not very hard to take an 1860 Army, load it up to original capabilities and hit a man-sized target at 75 yards.  All ya gotta do is STOP him, not necessarily kill him.

I'm talking primarily Colt handguns here, not Remingtons or assorted others.  You asked about your Colt repro, after all. 

Therefore, while historically correct, those front sights will "shoot high" and you will need to A) have the sight replaced with a taller one, B) learn to aim at the BOTTOM of the target, rather than the center (which then invites possible "bad Habits" for other shooting INCLUDING defensive), C) adjust your load as suggested by Mako and others (myself included) or D) Don't worry about it - shoot BP which is WAY more fun because of the BOOM - Smoke - and Fire!  Do your best and have fun is MY choice! 

Do a little load adjusting and learn to aim a little lower for CAS is easy.  Now if you're a die-hard competitor ... well, that's different.

Your mileage may vary...