loading fffg American Pioneer powder in Trapdoor .45-70

[Doug.38PR]

I have a Pedersoli that I'd like to load up my along with my .45 Long Colt guns in fffg American Pioneer Powder.   

AP website only shows data for ffg powder and not fffg indicating that the latter is mostly for handguns.

Can the fffg powder still safely be used in .45-70 trapdoor rifle loads? 

Does anybody have any loading data available?

[Bunk Stagnerg]

If you can't find data most likely there is a reason. The reason probably is it is that granulation generates too much pressure for the Trap Door action which is not a very strong lockup.
Personally I use 55 grains of FFg and a filler for my .45-70 Gun Powder loads and a 405 grain bullet.
Those loads are shot in a 1886 Winchester which is a much stronger action that a Trap Door, even a modern one.
Hold Center
Bunk

[Dave T]

Bunk is correct. 3F is just not the proper granulation for a case the size of the 45/70. They figured this out way back in the 19th Century so don't try to reinvent the wheel. Follow the example/experience of your ancestors and use 2F. (smile)

Dave

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[Doug.38PR]

So the short answer is: go spend the extra $10 and get 2g or ffg.

How does American Pioneer compare to real black powder and modern smokeless powder in terms of velocity and pressure?   I know it's safe to use in ball and cap guns as well as cartridge guns and it generates smoke like black powder

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Correctionon my post
That should read  55 grains of FFg real Gun Powder, not any one of the substitutes.
I have nothing against the substitutes, just that real Gun Powder is legal to have here in Texas so I use it, that's all. It is a good thing that Pyrodex. Black MZ, and APP are available for those who want to shoot the old way but can't get real Gun Powder
At least that is what it is called on the label of my old oval shaped powder can.
Respectfully
Bunk

[Doug.38PR]

I actually would rather have black powder.  It is legal in Louisiana.  But it's just so hard to come by.  Most local dealers don't sell it anymore

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Check Jack's Powder Keg. He is somewhere over in Louisiana.
Don't know him never did business with him but something to check out.
i should hve posted this in the Dark Siders Den so please excuse me this time.
Bunk

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

I have been loading APP fff in 45/70 for years.
70gr compressed load 405 gr .
Never a issue :-)

[Ranch 13]

I actually would rather have black powder.  It is legal in Louisiana.  But it's just so hard to come by.  Most local dealers don't sell it anymore

Powder Inc, ships in 5, 10and 25 lb lots. Graf's will ship 2 lbs, but just as well offset the hazmat and go with 5 lbs or more.

[Pettifogger]

So the short answer is: go spend the extra $10 and get 2g or ffg.

How does American Pioneer compare to real black powder and modern smokeless powder in terms of velocity and pressure?   I know it's safe to use in ball and cap guns as well as cartridge guns and it generates smoke like black powder

You can't directly compare any of these powders, especially BP or a sub to smokeless.  Even if the pressures were the same for a BP and a smokeless load the pressure curves are competely different.  APP granulation size is also a poor indicator of actuall grain size.  2f APP is much coarser than most 2f real BP powders.  You pretty much have to use 3f APP in revolvers as 2f is simply to coarse.  APP tends to have the lowest pressure and velocity of any of the subs or of real BP.  The main thing to keep in mind is not to over compress APP.  Lots of BP shooters seem to enjoy squashing their powder into solid slugs.  Works OK for BP but do not do that with APP (or the other subs).  Just a little compression is all you need with APP.  2f or 3f, I use what I have at the time.  Quit overthinking this.  APP can be loaded volume for volume with real BP and you will never have a problem with it.