Newbie question: bp after smokeless without cleaning?

[JerseyJD]

I'm confused about a very basic issue. I have seen numerous videos on the net by experienced bp shooters using bp cartridges after smokeless in the same gun, apparently without cleaning before switching cartridge types. Yet, I've also read posts on preparing your cartridge guns for black powder which suggest a thorough cleaning is necessary before switching from smokeless to black powder.  Can somebody explain this apparent contradiction? Would the explanation differ if one used certain blackpowder subs (777, APP) which allow smokeless lube?     

[Mako]

Jersey,
The problem is the fouling types and what is used to clean them. Smokeless normally use a "nitro solvent" like a Hoppes.  They are going after carbon fouling and metal deposits. BP just needs water to break up the BP residues, you get little metal deposition if any and if not allowed to dry out the fouling won't be hard.  

If you shoot smokeless and follow it with BP you're going to have to clean twice in some cases.  First the water and soap helps, but the carbon fouling is not dissolved by the water so after you've dried and protected the metal you're going to need to go after it with a cleaner fora smokeless propellant.

I don't do it but I have on occasion loaned a gun to a shooter at a match who was either shooting smokeless and I gave them a rifle that had been shooting BP or they started shooting BP loads and then decided the smoke was bothering them and switched to smokeless ammo my girls had or used their own. In one case the pistols cleaned almost completely with water.  I think they had a film of BP lube and debris and that actually protected the bores and cylinders.  I probably didn't need to follow with another solvent and the I ended up cleaning them again with soap and water to get the solvent off and then oiled them with Ballistol.  The rifle was different, it was a mess.

There is an area on cap and ball revolvers and all percussion firearms that gets carbon fouling and that is the cone and the area surrounding the cone the cap sits on. The percussion caps use Lead Styphnate as the priming compound and there is no lube present to help keep the fouling soft.  I tried something last month on a friends model '58 that was grossly fouled around the cones.  I used a product called SLiP2000 which they call a carbon "Killer".  I'll tell you what... it works wonders on AR15 and AR10 Bolts and Bolt Carriers.  It is great on any gas operated automatic weapon and cuts through old layers of fouling. It cleaned up the '58 cylinder and you rinse it with water which is great because you just treat it like you would if you were just cleaning with water.

I'm going to do a test and take some photos in the next couple of months trying different carbon cleaners on the rear of cap gun cylinders and on the cones.

Something like a carbon remover like SLiP2000 might be the answer for those "double" fouled firearms.  Lacking that they can be a bear to clean sometimes.

Regards,
Mako

[Blackpowder Burn]

Mako,

Have you tried an ultrasonic cleaner on the cap'n ball cylinders?  I've been using one for over 6 months now and it does a great job.  In fact, I remove the cylinder and drop it and the entire revolver frame in.  Then I give it a good wipe down and lube with Ballistol.

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[Mako]

Mako,

Have you tried an ultrasonic cleaner on the cap'n ball cylinders?  I've been using one for over 6 months now and it does a great job.  In fact, I remove the cylinder and drop it and the entire revolver frame in.  Then I give it a good wipe down and lube with Ballistol.

I have tried it on smaller parts.  The one I have at home is a small one and won't accept a barrel.  Up to this point I don't drop my cylinders in with the tubes in place because I don't want the anti-seize in the threads removed.  I'm not sure how much it will remove, but the threads are fully exposed at the bottom of the chambers.  I do put the removed tubes into clean and I have done all of the small parts including the cylinder.

What are you using for your cleaner?  Is it plain water, or does it have a surfactant?  Are you using one of those "wonder" solvents?

As I mentioned I'm going to do some testing later.  I'm going to try and find an easy way for the shooter to clean the hard to clean parts.  Soap and water in a barrel is easy, the same for the chambers in a cylinder.  It's the hard to clean areas like the areas around the cones or even the internals of an assembled frame (less the grips) that would be nice to find an easy method for.

Bill Laughridge started offering what they call the "Dunk-Kit" back in the '80s.  I tried it for a while since it was a freebie and I had several friends who did it almost exclusively.  It is a pail with a cleaner in it, you remove the grips and literally dunk it for about half an hour and then blow it off with compressed air.  It works okay, but you still get some fouling back in areas like the firing pin hole, extractor hole, etc. that need to be cleaned every so often.   The barrels never came 100% clean either.  I still stripped mine down every couple of days.  I know some of the shooting schools use a system like that for some f their "range guns."

So what do you use?

~Mako

[Blackpowder Burn]

I use the firearms cleaning solution that Hornady sells for their ultrasonic cleaner.  Seems to do a great job and has not caused any damage to the finish of the guns I've cleaned in it.  Those include 2 Uberti 3rd Model Dragoons, 2 USFA premium revolvers, a USFA Rodeo, and a Springfield stainless 1911.

[Mako]

I use the firearms cleaning solution that Hornady sells for their ultrasonic cleaner.  Seems to do a great job and has not caused any damage to the finish of the guns I've cleaned in it.  Those include 2 Uberti 3rd Model Dragoons, 2 USFA premium revolvers, a USFA Rodeo, and a Springfield stainless 1911.

Cool, what do the areas around the cones look like?  You're using Treso tubes now aren't you?  What do they look like after the cleaning?

That solution they have is fine for gun finishes, no worries there.  I am just curious as how the solution handles that really hard carbon fouling you get from the percussion caps.   That's the only area of a cap gun that remains a problem after water cleaning.

Happy New Year,
Mako

[w44wcf]

I'm confused about a very basic issue. I have seen numerous videos on the net by experienced bp shooters using bp cartridges after smokeless in the same gun, apparently without cleaning before switching cartridge types. Yet, I've also read posts on preparing your cartridge guns for black powder which suggest a thorough cleaning is necessary before switching from smokeless to black powder.  Can somebody explain this apparent contradiction? Would the explanation differ if one used certain blackpowder subs (777, APP) which allow smokeless lube?    

Jersey,
Personally, I have shot black (SPG lube - SWISS BP) after smokeless (NRA 50/50 lube) without cleaning and had no problems whatsoever. Accuracy was great and unaffected.  Going the other way, though  takes a few shots before the bullets are impacting under the sights. Perhaps the results would have been different with a different b.p.

If one uses bullets lubed with a b.p. lube for both powder types, the transition might be better if one is not using SWISS BP.

Since 777 & APP burn fairly clean, I would not think not cleaning between would be an issue.

Best thing is to try it for yourself using your components.

w44wcf  

[cpt dan blodgett]

Near as I can tell the problem with shooting Black after smokeless really has more to do with the potential for copper fouling in the bore, that will cause leading issues. 

[Dick Dastardly]

I've used Big Lube®LLC bullets lubed with PL-II with smokeyless fad heathen powder and, of course, Holy Black.  I've inter mixed them, shot them separately, shot them one magazine full followed by the other, both ways.  No problems.  Where I did encounter problems was when I started mixing jacketed smokeyless loads and my bp loads.  Then accuracy went south in a hurry and I had a real mess to clean up afterward.

So, if you must mix powders and keep the bullets and lube the same, you may be ok.  But, read the above and know that I was using the SAME bullets and lube.  Also, please note which bullets and lube I was using. . .

DD-MDA

[Mako]

Jersey,
Personally, I have shot black (SPG lube - SWISS BP) after smokeless (NRA 50/50 lube) without cleaning and had no problems whatsoever....
w44wcf  

OH SURE... Brag about it!

Kidding of course. 

Obviously mileage may vary.  Or maybe the fouling was afraid to deposit itself upon the rifling of the one and true w44wcf.  I actually believe that to be the case.  All mere mortals have to clean, but w44wcf can make deposits fall away with just a word, and a scornful look causes lead to tuck tail and run...

Some day when I grow up I will be able to laugh to scorn plastic fouling from wads in shotgun barrels like Hellgate and cause guns to clean themselves like w44wcf.  I'll wave my hand and say, "this is not the bore you are looking for..."

  Mako

[w44wcf]

.....Or maybe the fouling was afraid to deposit itself upon the rifling of the one and true w44wcf.  I actually believe that to be the case.  All mere mortals have to clean, but w44wcf can make deposits fall away with just a word, and a scornful look causes lead to tuck tail and run.......
  Mako

 
Well.....actually not really a "scornful look" .... just a smiling, hand loaded 44-40 cartridge in the chamber....with the bullet ready to make the trip.....

w44wcf

 

w44wcf

[Blackpowder Burn]

Mako,

Yes, I have Treso tubes on the gun.  After cleaning they are brass colored on the outer end (where the cap sits).  The base has turned black.  At any rate, they are easily removable and caps seat easily.

[Mako]

Mako,

Yes, I have Treso tubes on the gun.  After cleaning they are brass colored on the outer end (where the cap sits).  The base has turned black.  At any rate, they are easily removable and caps seat easily.

Aggie,
Do me a favor, look at the walls in the cutouts around the tubes and in the corners where the sidewalls come together with the face the tube flange seats against.  Is there any residue left in those areas?  I'm trying to determine if the cleaning solution you are using actually dissolves the carbon or if the agitation from the ultra sonics just gets the solution under some of it and lifts it off.

I'm suspicious it is the latter if the base of the tubes under the cones on the Tresos are still black.  Carbon fouling is super hard to remove.

There are several products I'm going to try or try again again.  Seafoam works if it is used every time and the fouling isn't hard.  GM has a spray and a liquid called GM Top Engine Cleaner (TEC), there's Wipe-Out Carb-Out Carbon Remover, MPro7, SharpShoot-R Carb-Out and the SLiP2000 I wrote about.  I know about all of these from trying to find Bolt Carrier Assembly and MG piston cleaners cleaners.  Those deposits are the hardest things to clean in the "smokiless" world.  The areas in the openings around the tubes are the hardest to clean on cap guns.

The cleaners like your Hornady cleaner, all of the other utra sonic gun cleaners that are getting popular, Laughridge's Dunk Kit and a bunch of others now are great general purpose cleaners.   It's the carbon fouling that is the bane of a cleaner, The true "carbon cleaners" are specialized and don't always go after some of the other deposits as well as the other general purpose cleaners.

Even if you don't remove every square inch of carbon from the tubes or the recesses the ultrasonic cleaning you are doing is better than what most people are doing.  If you get too anal, you'll just wear your guns out from cleaning.  I used to disassemble after every match and was wearing things out like the soft Italian steel screws.  Even the replacement American Screws from VTI  take a lot of abuse.  The tribe of warriors I was trained with were cleaning fanatics, I've spent hours, days and weeks cleaning M-14s and M-16s.  I really had to change my habits with IPSC and 3Gun, I was wearing the weapons out, I wish they had the products that are available now 20 years ago.

After you put your frames in the tank and dry them off, how do you relube the action?  Just use Ballistol spray?

Regards,
Mako

[Blackpowder Burn]

Mako,

Yes, there is a small amount of residue in the corners as you say.  I've been satisfied with it since it is much cleaner than anything else I've been able to do short of removing the cones for each cleaning, and the amount of residue/deposit seems to have reached equilibrium.  I was warned not to remove the cones every time I cleaned the guns because of the wear issue you mention.

I spray moose milk into the action after the ultrasonic cleaning, and wipe straight ballistol liquid on the arbor when reassembling.