Henry Big Boy vs Winchester vs Rossi etc

[Driftwood Johnson]

P.S.

The question about removing the lever safety on a '73 just came up on the SASS Wire today.

There are two accounts of mishaps with the safety removed.

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=174448

[RickB]

I hear that short stroked rifles are more prone to OBD's than stock guns, however I am ignorant as to whether that is the nature of their design or improper installation. It doesn't really matter to me as I would rather be seen wearing a dress & high heels than with a short stroked rifle.  

Totally agree with you on this statement. But careful with saying it. There are some folks here who have argued with me that short stroke kits are the same lever throw as the original Winchesters. I almost got banned from the forums because I proved this wasn't the facts. 

[Mako]

P.S.

The question about removing the lever safety on a '73 just came up on the SASS Wire today.

There are two accounts of mishaps with the safety removed.

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=174448

Driftwood these are the perennial discussions that go on and on and on... I have seen them for years on SASSNet.  From which I offer a quote from our very own "Springfield Slim" that he posted over there today."

Springfield Slim SASS #24733
For what it is worth, 66's are the same gun without the safety and we don't seem to have any problems.

There was only one "report" that I saw and he was shooting a 32-20 of all things... Must have been a smokeless load if it ruptured the case   I know there have been others I have been reading SASSnet for years.

I think one of the posters summed it up well.  If it was an issue then Henrys and '66s would be banned for safety reasons.  Not only that, but there would be gunsmiths nationwide offering retrofit kits to make the '66 "as safe as a '73".  This is a non-issue, it is something that '73 shooters list as what makes a '73 better than a '66.  I know there are light spring kits and people tune them.  I also know some fast shooters still remove the safety because they don't always depress lever if they shoot as I described above.

I have yet to read of someone posting they had an "accident" with a '66, it always seems to be '73s.  There may be some, but I've never read them.  If you carefully go back through the archives you will find shooters claiming they had out of battery discharges with '73s that had the safety levers in place.  Then the threads degenerated into discussions of how their rifle was defective, or they had lightened the spring, or that the spring might be broken, or the safety bar stuck in the opening and the list goes on.

I have '73s as well as '66s and a Henry, I shoot.  I  normally shoot a '66 instead of the '73 because it fits the time period for my persona better and matches better with the Army models I shoot.  I shoot a hammered shotgun for the same reason, and I have considered shooting the Henry more, but it is not conducive to fast shooting.  I was just concerned because you were telling a new shooter looking for advice that toggle links other than a '73 were unsafe because they lacked a feature that didn't appear until 13 years after the Henry came out.  You could use the same argument about 1911s that lack a firing pin block, but under scrutiny the argument doesn't hold water.

Just sayn', and I'm not trying to start a fight, but did you see the original poster FrontierFred's initial response after you made the post about safety?

Regards,
Mako

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[RickB]

Mako, I've been shooting a 1866 for years now and not a single problem with it. It's bone stock. No mods. No short stroke kit. Just like it left the factory, except it's a bit more worn and smoother action now after having 1000 of rounds through it. I would highly recommend the 66 to anyone. It's a great gun.

I believe that the more people modify these guns for speed, the more they set themselves up for a failure. The short stroke kits should be banned in all guns. Pistols and rifles. It's a safety hazard in my opinion.

[Coffinmaker]

Well, I just gotta jump into this one.  From a Gun Plumbers standpoint.  First, Rick B is correct.  The lever throw on an original '73 is about the same as the lever throw on a new build Uberti.  Rick B is incorrect in that he states a short stroke is a safety hazard.  It isn't.  He is however, entitled to his opinion.
I have repaired a number of rifles damaged by OBD.  Henry's, '66s and '73s.  The majority of those occurrences were the direct result of shooter stupidity.  Mostly trying to force the lever by "slapping" it when there was a stoppage.  I have one on the way to me now.  I also have to remove the stuck case from the head separation on this one. 
dI personally shoot a '66 as my main match rifle and do not see any hazard to either the short stroke nor the lack of a trigger block safety.  You can get into just as much trouble running faster than your muscle memory can handle with a stock throw rifle. 
Now for Uberti:  The early build rifles had a tiny cross pin retaining the Firing Pin Extension Rod.  In a serious OBD the bolt ran back to the receiver hard enough to shear the pin and spit the rod out the back of the rifle.  It was stopped by the shooters cheek.  It hurt.  A LOT!
Uberti beefed the pin up and changed the geometry of the hammer to stop the rod exiting the receiver.  Uberti wasn't happy with that.
Uberti then completely changed the retention of the Extension Rod to mime the retention of the original Winchester Firing Pin.  It is now a non-issue with the exception of the damage to the lever and Carrier Block lifting Arm.  That can get expensive.
Now, the innards of the Henry, the '66 and the '73 are fairly soft.  The Springs are NOT.  Shot a lot with stock Uberti springs and the rifles will slowly chew themselves to death.  The springs are WAY too heavy.  If your not into short strokes, at least a good action job with reduced springs will prolong the useful life of the rifle to an indefinite period and make the rifle a lot more user friendly.

Coffinmaker

PS:  The Chaparral rifles are JUNK.  The Henry Big Boy isn't far behind.  It's action is a poor copy of Marlin.  Most I have seen are not reliable and there are no after-market parts to make them more reliable.

[RickB]

The reason I state it is a safety hazard (in my opinion) is that most people are unable to use the gun stock, yet they change out the innards to make it a race gun and now they have a gun that is beyond their abilities. Thus, making it a race gun for someone who is not ready for one. They do this because "everyone else" does it, and they need to keep up with the pack. I feel this is dangerous. It has people modifying guns beyond their abilities. I also don't think that it is a good idea to make CAS a race gun sport. The idea originally was to take period correct guns and play cowboy. Dress the part, and be either authentic to the period or like a hollywood cowboy. But the guns were all stock. Lately, the idea has been to make it a race for speed. I feel this is dangerous. Yes, some people have the skills to handle fast shooting. But I cherish accurate shooting over speed anyday.

It's like riding a motorcycle. I ride a 2008 Crossbones HD springer softail. I've added a few items to it to make it more comfortable, but it has no modifications to the motor or handling. It is safe that way, the way they designed it. Now. I have friends who've started riding and the first thing they do is have a bore job done to their bikes making them larger bores and faster. They do mods like NOS to help add speed. Or they buy racing bikes to give them the edge. Problem is, they don't have the expereince with stock bikes and they usually wind up injured or dead. I've had to go to a number of funerals where they just weren't able to deal with what they had built for them.

Ability + stock = safe and a good experence.
Ability + speed + experence = safe and quite a site to behold.
Speed + inexperence = unsafe and a hazard to everyone else on the range.

I've seen too many in the latter catagory.

I shoot with NCOWS just for this reason. Short strokes are not allowed on any gun nor are modifications to make them race guns. We shoot for accuracy not speed. We have tons of fun and everyone is relaxed and not trying to rush their next shot. No running on the range because we are not shooting against the clock and using modified guns that make it a race.

That's been my observation and it is why I have this opinion.

Not only that, but to modify a gun outside of it being a period correct gun just seems like it is wrong for CAS. We are supposed to be emulating a period of history, not trying to be Cowboys vs Aliens. 

[RickB]

Not only the 73 had the same lever throw as the Uberti models did, but so does the 66 and Henry from what I've found.

Even Evil Roy stated on the show Cowboys that the current reproductions have the same lever throw as the originals.

Now. I'll shut up on the topic. FOR NOW. HA HAH AHA HA.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Two points:

1.  The very early Uberti '66's had the same lever safety that the Uberti '73's have. I never knew why Uberti changed that unless a return to tradition.

2.  The ORIGINAL Win. '73's had an ingenious safety device that worked of an actutator arm attached to one toggle link that blocked the FP until the toggles were in place, i.e., lever in battery. I never understood why Uberti did not merely copy that.    The early originals did not have this internal device and since I don't have the Pirkle book at hand I don't remember at what point in production they introduced it.

Years ago in the BP Cartridge News there was an article on this and there was an old newspaper story out of MT where a sheepherder was injured when his '73 "kaboomed."

[Pettifogger]

ALL 73s made by Winchester have the device you are talking about.  It is a firing pin retractor.  Rather than do the extra machining, Uberti simply put a coil spring around the firing pin to retract it.  Neither will prevent the kind of out of battery discharge we are talking about (i.e., pulling the trigger before the bolt is fully closed).  The primary purpose is to make sure the firing pin is retracted behind the bolt face.  Otherwise when you chambered the next round the protruding firing pin could cause an OBD with your finger no where near the trigger.  The "retraction" function occurs toward the rear of the lever stroke.  It is completely released before the bolt comes anywhere near being in battery.  I have an original serial number 16,XXX.  It does not have the trigger block safety.  Not sure when Winchester added it, but it was fairly early in production.

[Grizzly Adams]

 

I shoot with NCOWS just for this reason. Short strokes are not allowed on any gun nor are modifications to make them race guns. We shoot for accuracy not speed. We have tons of fun and everyone is relaxed and not trying to rush their next shot. No running on the range because we are not shooting against the clock and using modified guns that make it a race.

 

Hmmm.  So you guys don't use a timer at NCOWS events?   Who wins?  The guy that is most accurate, and if so, how is that determined?

[Shotgun Franklin]

SASS only went the speed route because they were copying Hollywood Westerns where a fast draw nearly always won the fight. If had people tell me that if I'm not missing I'm not shooting fast enough. I fast miss is still a miss.

[Cherokee Reb]

Hmmm.  So you guys don't use a timer at NCOWS events?   Who wins?  The guy that is most accurate, and if so, how is that determined?

Still use a timer, but with pistol targets out to 25 yards and rifle out to 50 yards+, it's more about accuracy than speed. Trying to acquire 5 diamonds measuing 6X6 inches spaced over a 10-15 foot spread at 25 yards takes more time than shooting larger plates at shorter distances but, yes, timing is involved. I do , however agree, it seems more relaxed with NCOWS.

CR

[Evelyn Canarvon]

I have a Henry Big Boy.  Fun for hunting or target.  As for CAS I find it to be a bit heavy and clunky.

As for USA made I am hoping the Autolok people that have announced they are working on a USA made 1973 reproduction will be able to pull it off. 

[Grizzly Adams]

Still use a timer, but with pistol targets out to 25 yards and rifle out to 50 yards+, it's more about accuracy than speed. Trying to acquire 5 diamonds measuing 6X6 inches spaced over a 10-15 foot spread at 25 yards takes more time than shooting larger plates at shorter distances but, yes, timing is involved. I do , however agree, it seems more relaxed with NCOWS.

CR

Hmmmm.  Well, Cherokee Reb, if you are using a timer, and the winner is the fella with the fastest time, with no premium or bonus for accuracy, then your game is about speed too!  As for the distance, it's all relative, and the same shooters win no matter the distance.  It may take them 2-3 seconds more, but the results shake out the same in the end.

The only game I know that puts a premium on accuracy is Western 3 Gun.  In W3G, the shooter who has the most center hits, can sometimes prevail over those with fewer center hits but faster times.

[John William McCandles]

Hmmmm.  Well, Cherokee Reb, if you are using a timer, and the winner is the fella with the fastest time, with no premium or bonus for accuracy, then your game is about speed too!  As for the distance, it's all relative, and the same shooters win no matter the distance.  It may take them 2-3 seconds more, but the results shake out the same in the end.

The only game I know that puts a premium on accuracy is Western 3 Gun.  In W3G, the shooter who has the most center hits, can sometimes prevail over those with fewer center hits but faster times.

Besides the target distances at most NCOWS matches, misses are a 10 seconds penalty and a procedural is I believe 20 seconds penalty.
And yes the matches are more relaxed and not that much of a shooting race, much as SASS was in the early days.

Regards
JW

[Major 2]

Hmmmm.  Well, Cherokee Reb, if you are using a timer, and the winner is the fella with the fastest time, with no premium or bonus for accuracy, then your game is about speed too!  As for the distance, it's all relative, and the same shooters win no matter the distance.  It may take them 2-3 seconds more, but the results shake out the same in the end.

The only game I know that puts a premium on accuracy is Western 3 Gun.  In W3G, the shooter who has the most center hits, can sometimes prevail over those with fewer center hits but faster times.

NCOWS does not have set target minimum size ( as SASS does @ 16" x 16" ) Distance is not dictated either.
A miss is charged at 10 sec. and a procidure is also 10 sec. ( SASS sets a 5 sec. penality )

A smaller pistol target at 21-24 feet will take few seconds more. Rifle targets are out to 50 - 75 ' normally.
At recent shoot there was full sized hang man , at 50 feet, the shooter had to cut the rope and drop him.
The rope was in fact a 1/2 " by 1/4"  pine stick hanger, no penality for missing, but a 10 sec. bonus to drop him.
And no bonus to nick the stick without droping the hang man.

[John William McCandles]

NCOWS does not have set target minimum size ( as SASS does @ 16" x 16" ) Distance is not dictated either.
A miss is charged at 10 sec. and a procidure is also 10 sec. ( SASS sets a 5 sec. penality )

A smaller pistol target at 21-24 feet will take few seconds more. Rifle targets are our to 50 - 75 ' normally.
At recent shoot there was full sized hang man , at 50 feet, the shooter had to cut the rope and drop him.
The rope was in fact a 1/2 " by 1/4"  pine stick hanger, no penality for missing, but a 10 sec. bonus to drop him.
And no bonus to nick the stick without droping the hang man.

Major2, thanks for correcting me on the procedural penalties.


Regards
JW

[Grizzly Adams]

NCOWS does not have set target minimum size ( as SASS does @ 16" x 16" ) Distance is not dictated either.
A miss is charged at 10 sec. and a procidure is also 10 sec. ( SASS sets a 5 sec. penality )

A smaller pistol target at 21-24 feet will take few seconds more. Rifle targets are our to 50 - 75 ' normally.
At recent shoot there was full sized hang man , at 50 feet, the shooter had to cut the rope and drop him.
The rope was in fact a 1/2 " by 1/4"  pine stick hanger, no penality for missing, but a 10 sec. bonus to drop him.
And no bonus to nick the stick without droping the hang man.

Your rules are close to those used by OWSA.  The hold a great match at the NRA Center in Raton, NM.  It was canceled this year, however - possibly due to fire danger in Northern NM.  Check them out here: http://www.owsacas.com/about.html

If you view the photos, you will see that many rifle targets are engaged from the rested or seated position.  They are a looong ways out there!  Fun group, and lots of shooting!