What do I have? BP Revolver - PROBLEM SOLVED, NOW

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy, friends!

Since I'm asking about a BP revolver, I thought I'd post this here for maximum exposure from you experienced members.  Thanks ahead of time.

I have a BP revolver given to me from  a friend.  I'll try to make its history short, but it is interesting and a puzzle.  This revolver started out life as an 1851 Colt Navy, Cal. 36 repro, I'm pretty sure.  The internals have been smoothed to the point that it feels like it's operating and made of greased glass.  The front sight was removed and a dovetailed custom-cut blade put in its place.  Then, it was put on a lathe and the barrel was cut to make it round, like the Confederate copies, but still having a steel frame, like some of the Leech & Rigdons were.  It was done extremely well and only upon VERY close inspection can one see that it used to have the standard, not round barrel.  The bluing was removed and the gun was antiqued.  The cylinder engraving was left as is, just antiqued.  On top of the barrel remains what HAD been on the barrel before the lathe work:  it says:  "SAM'L COLT'S PATENT 1860."  There are NO other markings or proof marks remaining, save the serial # on the underneath side of the barrel, right where it butts up to the frame, which is NOT marked with the ser.#, nor is the ser.# marked on the under side of the brass gripframe.  The sight groove in the hammer was changed to a nice square cut which corresponds perfectly to the new drift-able higher-than-original sight "acorn."  It was made into a really sweet shooter.

Now, why was this done? I can't say, 'tho I suspect fraud played some part in the modifications.  Any REAL expert would know immediately from the barrel marking that it wasn't an original Colt.  However, the "look" says it's really old, but exquisitely maintained.  A collector's dream ... if only it were real.  But it will fool a novice.  Which is where my friend come into the story. He was taken for $300 for this gun, and it was "hinted" to be a REAL authentic Colt.  This took place at a gunshow about 15-20 years ago.  No paperwork, no recourse, etc.  VERY sad for my Bud.

Here I come, and I sadly prove to him that it's a nice piece, but NOT a $300 bargain, authentic antique Colt.  He gets SO mad he hands it to me and says he never wants to see it again.  3 years later when I attempt to give it back, he repeats the "keep that piece of sh.., I don't want to see it ever again."  I'll never get rid of it, so in the odd chance he decides he wants it returned, I can.

So ... why this post?  I wish to further make it into an authentic (looking) Leech & Rigdon, which had a plain cylinder, with no rollmark engraving.  My problem?  How do I find out who actually made it?  Does anyone have dimensions of the cylinders?  I doubt it was made by Uberti, as they seem slimmer, so that leaves Pietta of Lyman or ...  

If I knew anyone who HAS one of these other manufactured revolvers, I'd simply try on of  their cylinders and see what fits, but I don't have that option.  Any other opinions are welcome ... except for the classic "send it to me, and I'll save you the trouble" answers ... that I've used myself on occasion!

 

Thanks for any help -  Jeff  "Steel Horse Bailey"

You can see this revolver in the following picture:  It's the one on the bottom, facing opposite the others.

[Greysmoke]

My bet is that it's a Armi San Paolo because it has their type of hammer, grip frame shape, and large/long forcing cone. Most of these were imported by FIE and it will be marked on the bottom of the gripframe.These are great pistols. For some reason these pistols shoot harder/more recoil for the same load than the ubertis, or san marcos. If anyone knows why the extra recoil let me know.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Thanks, Greysmoke.  I assure you, ALL markings, except what I mentioned, have been removed.  I'm betting that was done to fool any unwary into thinking it was an authentic antique.  I'm not familiar with the Armi San Paulo or San Marco guns - which is why I'm hoping someone who actually has one will measure theirs and send me (via here) the dimensions.  The only guns I have access to are Ubertis, and I'm pretty confident that this gun ISN'T an Uberti.  The dimensions I need are pretty simple - length, width/diameter, & arbor hole size; after that, the  measurements become more complicated.

Thanks again for your comments.  I have no experience with the '51 types from ASM or ASP or any of the others, 'cept Uberti.

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[hellgate]

Greysmoke,
I'll hazard a guess as to why they shoot harder: Maybe the chambers are actually a little larger than bore diameter and there's a bit more swaging going on when it is fired. I have two matched '51 Navy 44s. One cylinder was reamed & ruined by me and the other reamed and not ruined by me. I replaced the ruined cylinder with a stock cylinder with a .447-.448" dia chambers (the reamed is .450-.451"). The reamed one bucks a little more than the factory smaller chambered gun. I suspect the bigger ball has to squeeze down a bit more and has a larger bearing surface leading to more friction and recoil. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Montana Slim]

Greysmoke,
I'll hazard a guess as to why they shoot harder: Maybe the chambers are actually a little larger than bore diameter and there's a bit more swaging going on when it is fired. I have two matched '51 Navy 44s. One cylinder was reamed & ruined by me and the other reamed and not ruined by me. I replaced the ruined cylinder with a stock cylinder with a .447-.448" dia chambers (the reamed is .450-.451"). The reamed one bucks a little more than the factory smaller chambered gun. I suspect the bigger ball has to squeeze down a bit more and has a larger bearing surface leading to more friction and recoil. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

Sounds good to me.....My Uberti "kit" 1860s shoot a tad "harder" than my Pietta 1860s. The Uberti's chambers are about .001 - .002 larger than the Pietta.


As far as the "fake" L&R...perhaps you can make a spindle out of a bolt, chuck0-it up into a drill press & use emory paper to polish off the existing cylinder engraving. Use a hard surface (board, etc as a backer for the paper)....I've done similar tasks with my limited home workshop equipment....& haven't ruined anything TOO valuable (yet) 

Regards,
Slim
Slim

[Drayton Calhoun]

As far as home machine work goes, I turned a Remington barrel down round with a bolt and electric drill, files, sand paper, tripoli powder and a LOT of patience.

[litl rooster]

Thanks, Greysmoke.  I assure you, ALL markings, except what I mentioned, have been removed.  I'm betting that was done to fool any unwary into thinking it was an authentic antique.  I'm not familiar with the Armi San Paulo or San Marco guns - which is why I'm hoping someone who actually has one will measure theirs and send me (via here) the dimensions.  The only guns I have access to are Ubertis, and I'm pretty confident that this gun ISN'T an Uberti.  The dimensions I need are pretty simple - length, width/diameter, & arbor hole size; after that, the  measurements become more complicated.

Thanks again for your comments.  I have no experience with the '51 types from ASM or ASP or any of the others, 'cept Uberti.

Jeffie I have one of each makers.  Armi San Paolo is marked top dead center of barrel Armi San Marcos is marked on the bottom of barrel under the loading lever and also serial numbers have pre fix of asm

I'll send the measurements to you

[Short Knife Johnson]

It's too bad you're friend got taken like that.  I just had a guy try to push me into the creek over a S&W New Model Russian.  He must have figued I wouldn't know the difference between a knock-off from Germany and the real thing.  I got lucky and wound up with a nicer gun in the end, but even still the deal left a real sour taste in my mouth and it took me a while to warm up to my latest purchase.

Anyway, the harder kicking feature is likely too big of a chamber and too small of a bore is more than likely the cause.  I recall reading a Mike Venturino article where he had a mismatched barrel and cylinder in n SAA.  A pre-war .45 Colt cylinder with a post-war .45 Colt barrel or something of that ilk.  The bullet being swaged down from .454 to .451 was enough of a discrepancy to deliver huge recoil.  Once discovred, the pistola was put away until the problem was fixed.   

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy, Friends!

The problem is now solved.  I found a feller (Jed Cooper) who had 3 different manufactured '51s or '51 types - I didn't know he had them!  The Uberti fit like a custom fitted cylinder - in other words, perfectly.  Actually, they ALL could have worked, but the Pietta would have had to have about .006" - .008" machined, sanded or filed off the face of the cylinder (or the end of the barrel) to work right without binding.

Thanks for the suggestions.  Montanny Slim, since the replacement cylinders from Uberti (via VTI) are around $70-$90 if I remember rightly I may take your idea as what I do. 

Thanks to all!

[Forty Rod]

As far as the "fake" L&R...perhaps you can make a spindle out of a bolt, chuck0-it up into a drill press & use emory paper to polish off the existing cylinder engraving. Use a hard surface (board, etc as a backer for the paper)....I've done similar tasks with my limited home workshop equipment....& haven't ruined anything TOO valuable (yet) 
Regards,
Slim

[Forty Rod]

As far as the "fake" L&R...perhaps you can make a spindle out of a bolt, chuck0-it up into a drill press & use emory paper to polish off the existing cylinder engraving. Use a hard surface (board, etc as a backer for the paper)....I've done similar tasks with my limited home workshop equipment....& haven't ruined anything TOO valuable (yet) 
Regards,
Slim

I did that with an early Griswold repro that came with an engraved cylinder. 

Hint #1:  keep the speed way down.

Hint #2:  anchor the bottom to keep it from wobbling.

It came out really well. 

I hope the SOB that stole it appreciated what he got.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Forty, how did you anchor the bottom of the "arbor?"

[Forty Rod]

Made a wood plug for the hole in the table and clamped a piece of mild steel to the top and bottom to hold it all together.  Once it was in place I drilled a hole the same size as the cylinder pin / arbor hole in the cylinder.  Got a piece of threaded rod the right diameter, pushed it up from the bottom through the hole, threaded a nut on,  pushed it through the cylinder, added another nut and put it into the chuck.  After to first two turns, I lubed the bottom of thing with gear grease to keep it from screeching at me and tried again.

Couldn't get the cylinder to rotate right, so I took it all apart and made another pair of plates to go above and below the cylinder and added bolts through two opposing chambers and bolted it all back together.

Play with it a bit and you can get it to work.  It was a PITA, but the end result was worth it.

Use a hard backing for the paper like Slim says and go slow.

I finished it with G-96 cold blue paste, but I can't find it any more, so you'll have to find something that works for you.

I also hand filed and sanded the top of the octagonal barrel lug half round like some of the original Griswolds were.  I was going to acid etch th spirals in the cylinder that show from the forging, but never got back to the project.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Forty Rod, thanks for the detailed instructions.  'Tho is sounds more complicated than one might imagine, I'll bet it's actually simpler than the last big project I tackled ... removing the "Billboard" or "CYA Lawyer cra ... er,crud"  on the side of my Ruger Vaquero barrel.  That was a challenge, I'll tell ya - 'specially since it was 100% by hand; trying to remove a LOT more metal than this cylinder project due to the depth of the Ruger stampings, and still have it look pleasing to the eye.  I managed to get it 99% right, I'm proud to say.

Thanks again

[Forty Rod]

Not too tough, just time consuming.

You could streamline it by eliminating the wood plug and bottom plate.  Not necessary (I discovered after the fact.).  Clamp a plate on top instead and drill through that to align the bottom of the threaded rod.

Don't bother with the plate under the cylinder if you have a sturdy washer in your scrap box.

Now all you need is the rod with three nuts and a washer for each, a top plate to fit over the rod and two holes for nuts and bolts (maybe an inch long) to hold the chambers so the cylinder doesn't rotate, some grease, sandpaper or emery cloth with backing, and the stuf to blue it..

Get everything together beforehand and it becomes an afternoon job instead of three days.  Test fit it all before you start to work.

Send pictures.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

More thanks, 40R!

Jed Cooper suggested that I use copper washers (automotive) so it doesn't scratch or deform any wonderful, hard-as-diamonds Italian steel.

Now, I only need to get a round Tuit.   

 

 

[ZVP]

 Several posts up on the string is a couple posts about chamber reaming and recoil. The assumptions couldn't be more wrong and here's why... Not to ruffle anyones feathers either!
 When you ram a ball into a chamber it gets sized to the chamber and the resulting ring of lead falls off and the ball is sized to the chamber. Reguardless of the inital size of the ball it is now chamber diameter. If you ream the chamber the ball is no more than a couple thousands (if even one) larger and the ball will only contact the rifling where it was sized as it passes through the rifling of the barrel.
 It would take a sophisticated machiene measurement device to detect the minimal increase in recoil generated by any reaming process.
 A ball sized too large would buldge and stick in the barrel or just blow the gun up. A simple reamingshouldn't increase the powder charge since you're supposed to weigh or meter that so recoil would not change from a powder increase.
 The ball goes straight forward and dosent tumble as it passes from the chamber to the forcing cone to the barrels rifling. Too large of a ball diameter would create the damages stated above.
 The conclusion would be that the shooter increased his powder load hence the recoil, or is just reading his feelings ackwardly.
 The simple change stated should not change the felt recoil.
 ZVP