Haversack

[kflach]

I'm looking at getting a Haversack since I shoot Working Cowboy. I've found a couple that seem reasonable.

One is a 13 1/2" L x 14 1/2" W bag found here:
     http://www.black-bear-haversack.com/product_info.php/products_id/3812

     It looks like it's wide enough to fit my 3-piece rifle cleaning rod as well as my other stuff.

The second is 10"x10" and can be found here (the "Shooting bag" at the bottom of the page):
     http://www.riverjunction.com/catalog/luggage/luggage.html

I can go home and measure my cleaning rod pieces to determine whether they'll fit, but assuming they do, do both bags fit within NCOWS specs?

Has anyone used either of these? Are they really "durable" or is that just marketing? the second bag is smaller, but with the two buttons it looks more secure (and perhaps easier to carry)

FWIW, my era of interest is 1870's Fort Worth Texas. I'm thinking in terms of being a shady character such as would be found in Ft. Worth's "Hells Half Acre." Not that *I* would ever be seen in such a place, of course...

[Books OToole]

kflach;

Check out a copy of Echoes of Glory the Arms and Equipment of the Confederacy (or Union - its 2 volumes).
There are lots of great photos of original haversacks for both enlistedmen and officers.

Books

[James Hunt]

As Books suggests for several years I carried about a CW military haversack documented in Echos of Glory. It worked fine. For the last two years though I have taken to using a wallet (think poor man's saddle bags). Cheaper, twice as much space, and much more comfortable to carry over your shoulder. You pretty much need to make your own, perhaps all of 30 minutes. They are very basic. I'd suggest linen, heavy cotton, perhaps duck (it was there but I have never seen one made of that), or certainly an old grain or sugar sack.

I have a relatively "poor hunter's" persona, if you are a successful  sporting man you may instead pursue carrying your stuff in a carpet bag considering the period you wish to portray. Many sources for that, but a quality one will be expensive. I have references for the use of a wallet during your time period if you are interested.

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[kflach]

James,

I haven't the slightest idea what you mean by a "wallet," and when I put wallet (or "cowboy wallet" or "western wallet") in Google I get a bazillian links to modern wallets. Do you know where there are any pictures online I could look at to see what you're referring to?

Thanks!

[James Hunt]

Sorry, think of a pillow case where you have sewn up the open end. Now make a cut in the middle (reinforce the opening) and you have two bags on either end. Put your stuff in. Works tied behind the saddle or thrown over the shoulder. This item has been around forever. If you want a reference I have two from your period. Below is mine, it is made of linen and carried behind my Mexican saddle or over my shoulder.



Check this cowboy out, pretty sure that is a wallet.



Although the term warbag is used, mostly in John Wayne films, the correct term for this is a wallet. A common conveyance of the period, I have never seen one used in NCOWS besides myself. With it you will be historically correct (and a bit unusual). In all likelihood it was made of scrap materials or an old sack. Make yours whatever size you want to fit your stuff. You can probably stop by any feed mill and pick up a used grain sack of burlap.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Stumbled on this site;

http://www.haversackdepot.com/haversack.htm

here is the British 1871 breadbag;  It was used by the NWMP, usually to carry spare ammo.

http://www.ima-usa.com/product_info.php/products_id/136

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

James;  What are the rough dimensions of your wallet?  How is it waterproofed?  Would the leg of some worn out trousers do?

[James Hunt]

Sir Charles: My bag was made to function on my horse, so I basically made it large enough to accommodate her flanks hanging over each side rather than just bounce behind the cantle. This ended up being a bit large for carrying around at a shoot, but it still works fine. I have a smaller one for trekking.

Wallets were field expedient in my opinion and if you want a small one a pant leg would seem to work just fine. Small enough and it becomes a belt bag.

Mine is not waterproof. I suppose if you wanted that and got canvas that you successfully shrunk as much as possible that would work. Or a heavy linen that you waxed. But I suspect that in their time - stuff just got wet, as did the person carrying it. For colonial use I just carry my food wrapped in linen inside either a wallet or a bag made of linen I do have waxed, but if I think I am going to get drenched I just roll it inside with my blanket and find a good tree.

This really is a cheap adaptable accoutrement, very correct for our period. It is my opinion that for my period of the early 1870's civilian use of saddle bags were not all that prevalent. I just don't see all that many in images with them. Most were poor and this is a poor man's fix.

[kflach]

It's actually quite brilliant. Simple, practical and inexpensive - just what a working-class person needs.

[Delmonico]

Sir Charles, just stuff it full of newspaper and put a couple coats of 50/50 lboiled linseed oil and mineral spirits on it.  I have a canvas/duck case for my Sharps I did that with

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

Kflach – If you’re keen to use an army surplus sort of haversack you can get a good ACW-1872 tarred army haversack from Trans-Mississippi Depot (Don Smith) that is an excellent repro and is made with period correct paint. This is one of the best on the market from one of the best suppliers: http://www.trans-mississippi.com/index.html

Or if you wanted to go with a homespun type and make it yourself that works too though measurements for such would vary and I have no such specifics. I can cite one reference about haversacks though. It isn't much but is documentation of a haversack being used by a buffalo hunter:  “…and seventy-five extra rounds in a haversack.” (1874, Texas, John R. Cook: pg 144 Encyclopedia of Buffalo Hunters & Skinners A-D by Miles Gilbert, 2003)

Brass

[Dr. Bob]

James Country Mercantile has a variety of haversacks.  They sell each year at the NCOWS convention.  They have some "officers" haversacks that are made on patterned cloth and are very reasonably priced.  Talk to Jean and tell her Dr. Bob sent you!  I buy a lot of clothes from her.  816-781-9473

     http://www.jamescountry.com/sitemap.html

Jean and Del are great folks to work with!!   I highly recommend them.  They have military haversacks too.

[Pancho Peacemaker]

Kevin,

One item I know is durable & sufficient in size is this carpet bag:

http://possibleshop.com/p-g-carpet-bag.html

I own one and it can carry the kitchen sink if need be.

Pancho

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

Kflach – If you're not keen on an ACW-1872 surplus haversack, here is a late-era bit of documentation that may be of interest regarding military surplus haversacks for sale to civilians: page 15 of The Catalogue of Guns, Swords, Cannons, Equipments, Military Goods &c for Sale, 1889 (Francis Bannerman’s store in Brooklyn) lists old U.S. Army haversacks for sale at $.75 each that would ‘serve either as a haversack or game bag’. These could also be purchased sewn together ‘made into saddle bags’ price per pair $1.50. It is not clear whether Bannerman modified infantry haversacks by having them altered and sewn together or if he was selling the ‘new linen duck saddle bags’ that appeared in the beginning of 1872 for use by the cavalry (page 97 The U.S. Army in the West 1870-1880 by Douglas C. McChristian, 1995).

The infantry haversack detailed in the 1889 Bannerman catalog is listed as ‘strong heavy flax canvas having a rubber covered flap’ which accurately describes the 1874 (type 1) mainly because the flap of that particular model variant was covered in india rubber sheeting (page 205 The U.S. Army in the West 1870-1880 by Douglas C. McChristian, 1995).  So it appears certain the army 1874 haversack is the one for sale as surplus in the Bannerman 1889 catalog.

Where to get a repro indian wars era haversack were you interested: I have a late model 1878 infantry haversack (the variant issued to the army up to and through the Span-Am war) that is an all-canvas body with canvas straps made by AEF Supply. It is a decent enough repro based on comparison with originals I’ve seen. However, I do not know if AEF Supply is in business any more. Though I can’t personally speak for the historical accuracy or quality of the following suppliers here are a couple that carry indian wars era army haversack repros: http://www.vrcmercantile.com/indianwars.html, or http://www.eureka-arsenal.com.

Brass

[River City John]

Having carried my gear to shoots in a tarred haversack for a number of years, I'll give you some thoughts.

Oh Boy, they says!

By the time you get 150 or so rounds, basic three-screwdriver set, small bottle of moosemilk, tobacco pouch full of cleaning patches, a small jointed cleaning rod, a tin cup, a small bag of jerky, a bag to keep empty brass, a small oil bottle, your ear plug case, a pouch with your plastic shields for the bows of your glasses, a gun rag or two, the car keys, . . and maybe one or two additional items that always seem to find their way into your kit, you're sorely testing the seams/strap on any canvas haversack. Therefor one of those additional items I got in the habit of toting was a period 'housewife'.
Whenever you set it down it collapses into a shapeless mass that somehow fails to keep items that need to stay reasonably upright, . . upright. And it's one of those quirky laws of physics that whatever item you need next out of your poke gravitates down to the bottom and is so cleverly buried it takes repeated rummaging every time you put your hands into it. (Women have noted this phenomenon for years in their ongoing struggle with the purse.)  

Advantage: It is period and keeps your hands free to carry firearms.

Eventually I relegated the haversack to it's original purpose and carried light, fluffy things; a period mess kit and utensils (I still have not discovered documentation for the use of styrofoam in the 19th century.) and foodstuffs. Especially foodstuffs. And stuff to enhance the flavor of foodstuffs. You begin to sense my priorities here.

I use now either a carpetbag or saddlebags, depending on the class I am shooting or the range-to-parking-lot-distance ratio. When shooting Working Cowboy I only need one hand to carry my rifle, so the other is free to carry the carpetbag. If I need two hands, then the saddlebags are thrown over the shoulder, et voila'!

A comment here about the carpet bags. My first one was wonderful and it more than filled the bill, but the fabric was more like upholstery than carpet. (Refer to above remarks about collapsing . . shapeless mass . . rummaging.) It went in trade to a good Pard who uses it as, of all things, luggage!
I found a very nice, small oriental rug that I had Rock Creek Leather fashion into a lined carpetbag for me. One that was not as generous as many on the market. The heavier weight of the rug was enough to keep it from collapsing in on itself and remain upright when opened.

The saddlebags are the most satisfactory as I can assign each pouch. One side carries all cleaning/maintenance gear and the dirty brass as it accumulates, the other side carries boxes of ammunition(cardboard with period labels, of course), safety gear, housewife (it has stayed because found to be useful too many times), and car keys.

Also important, the carpetbag gets 'Scotch-Guarded' and the saddlebag's leather gets dressed each season with a good paste treatment. The tarred haversack gets renewed with the same stuff I use on my fishskin slicker, 'Armor-All'

RCJ    

  

 

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Here is a set of Apache style saddle bags I made several years ago.

They are made with the same wallet pattern that James is talking about, but just a little fancier.

These are made to fit a horse so plenty of room for your gear.

I sold these at the Texas regional shoot this year.

Bill

[Irish Dave]

Very nice, Bill. Great looking work.

[kflach]

Yep, those *really* are purty!