Plainsman Side Match Rules

[Mako]

In the SASS handbook for the Plainsman Side Match Event it states , "This event requires two .36 caliber or larger Traditional style percussion revolvers, shot Duelist style."  Does this preclude shooting Gunfighter style in this category? In my opinion it really doesn't violate the spirit of the competition (or the cowboy way) and it is a form of the dualist style.

Has anyone ever had to deal with this question before, or does anyone know what the official ruing would be on this in a sanctioned match?

[Camille Eonich]

You have to shoot duelist unless the side match instructions say otherwise.  The only categories in SASS that are allowed to have two loaded pistols out at the same time are gunfighter and B-Western.

[Mako]

Camille,
You are correct, you almost quoted it verbatim, page 13 point four on the Gunfighter class. "The Gunfighter and B-Western Categories are the only categories that allow two loaded revolvers out of leather at the same time."

But... Plainsman Side Matches are not a "class,” and they aren’t categories, they are separate matches that allow anyone from any class or category to participate.  It specifies weapons, powder and that the pistols must be shot in the true “traditional” style, that being one handed.  It doesn’t tell the Classic Cowboys to take off their chaps or the B-Western Cowgirls to dress down, it is a simply a side match.  I’m not trying to be contentious, I was simply wondering what the call would be because it is a separate match that potentially could have entrants from every possible category in SASS save that of the Buckaroos who shoot rimfire.

Call me slow, but do you maintain that is the official stance of SASS on my original question?  I simply want to know if it has ever come up, or if anyone has ever shot it in that fashion at a sanctioned match.  Many matches now have Frontier Gunfighter categories which is not an official SASS "class."

Thank you for answering,
Mako

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[Ol Hoss]

"THE PLAINSMAN
This event requires two .36 caliber or larger Traditional style percussion revolvers, shot Duelist style.
• Must use a SASS–legal single-shot rifle firing a traditional blackpowder rifle or revolver caliber cartridge (e.g., not a .30-30). The rifle may have spring actuated ejectors if they are standard for that rifle.
• Must use a side by side, with or without exposed hammers or lever action shotgun.
• Must use blackpowder in all loads (rifle, revolver, and shotgun)."

Hi Mako

I put a copy of the side match rules for Plainsman above. Your absolutely right that this is a side match and the classes would not apply unless they were stated in the side match's rules.

Pretty much, thats what the "powers that be" have done. They specifically say "shot duelist style". I don't think they would allow "gunfighter style" unless they included it in the side match rules. Just like they excluded the two hand grip, by stating "shot duelist style".

The results for the 2008 Winter Range Plainsmen event, (http://www.winterrange.com/2008/2008results.htm), show that the shooters come from all classes , from Modern to Gunfighter and Classic Cowboy. But they all adhere to the rules for Plainsman and shoot the same weapons and styles to "even the match" across all classes.

Because I like to shoot gunfighter style with my 1851's maybe we could lobby for an amendment to the rule and add another class to Plainsman.

Good Luck
Ol' Hoss

[Mako]

Ol' Hoss,
Thank you for the reply, and for those who might not know what we were discussing your posting of the specifics of the match requirements might be helpful.

I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, I use a pair  '60 Army Models  gunfighter style even though Frontiersman Class “requires” that it be shot in "dualist style."  Local matches usually allow me to register as Frontiersman and I haven't really been challenged yet.  Maybe everyone is just being kind but the local wisdom appears to be that that "Double Dualist" is one form of Gunfighter and therefore Gunfighter is technically a form of “Dualist”.  By definition in the SASS Handbook Double Dualist is a form of Gunfighter and required whenever a full uninterrupted 10 shot string is prevented by the course design.  Every once in a while (usually when awards are involved) I get shoved into the Gunfighter class and am competing using my percussion revolvers, external hammer doublegun and all black powder  loads against pardners shooting smokeless loads.  I never considered it a problem because in my opinion anyone who shoots Gunfighter has already chosen a more difficult style and it’s all about the cowboy way…

I like you wish there was another category, but I wish it were a “Frontiersman Gunfighter” category, I also wish there was a “Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter” category because I shoot cartridge pistols every once in a while.  SASS has now recognized a “Frontier Cartridge Dualist” category.  (from SASS 2008 handbook) “Frontier Cartridge Duelist is also recognized, with all requirements being the same except the Duelist shooting style is used. See Duelist description for required shooting technique.“  I can tell you that most local matches I go to don’t make any differentiation between “Frontier Cartridge” and “Frontier Cartridge Dualist,” there aren’t enough people competing in those categories unless it is the state level matches to have separate categories.  For informal or monthly shoots the participants usually just state what their category is and when match results are posted everyone is just mixed all together.

We already have a slew of categories which is good for participation, but tough on match officials.  If Gunfighter was allowed as a sub-category for the black powder classes then I think they should just be lumped in under the main heading unless the participants in that specific class reached a certain number.  The only reason I even care is that I want to participate using arguably very period correct arms and powder type yet I don’t want to be bumped out of the Frontiersman category because I have chosen what for me is a more rigorous gunfighter shooting style.

When I asked the original question I pretty much knew what the “technically correct” answer would be because it is basically Frontiersman Class with a long range rifle.  The difference of course is that it is a Side Match and has participants from the other classes and I was wondering if anyone had pushed the issue of Gunfighter Style being a form of Dualist.

I hope I haven’t bored everyone to death, thank you for bearing with me.

Regards,
Mako

[Camille Eonich]

Double duelist is a duelist style.  When pistols aren't being shot back to back gunfighters have two choices.  If the stage allows for it they may make their pistols safe on a flat surface between the shooting strings or they may shoot double duelist.  Or, since the rule change, they can shoot the whole match double duelist if they prefer.  They will be at a disadvantage to the other gunfighters.  What you probably don't know is that just in the past coupleof years the rules for gunfighter were changed and if you were shooting gunfighter on a stage with back to back pistols you had to alternate the guns shot.  you could "change leads" once, maybe twice I can't remember now, during a shooting string.  That rule prevented gun fighters from shooting the entire match double duelist style.  It also made for headaches for spotters that tried to make certain that not only was the gunfighter hitting the correct target but that he was using the correct pistol at the correct time.



The duelist category does allow a person to shoot double duelist as well but you best not have two loaded guns out at the same times.  They give penalties for that.  A person can shoot duelist in any of the traditional, modern or age based categories.  This is why you may see people shooting duelist in frontier cartridge.  You can not shoot two handed in FCD.  You will be shooting  out of class and should receive a penalty for each stage that you shoot two handed.



I doubt that a side match writer would allow gunfighter style in the plainsman event.  Gunfighters are considered to have an advantage over duelists in most cases.

[Mako]

Camille,
Thank you for your reply, but I’m very aware of the rule change concerning the required firing order of the pistols.  The spotters on my posses are happy for the reason you specified.  They already consider it tough to spot with the cloud of smoke that grows as I approach the 10th shot.  The timer would have to watch my discharge order, this would leave me little room for appeal if he were the only one watching.  I am THRILLED with the change because I can now start with either hand, switch if necessary and engage the targets in an optimized order just as anyone shooting Traditional can do.  This seems simple, but at least for me Gunfighter is all about concentration.  I strive to keep a good rhythm and sometimes a changeover gets me in the optimum order for target engagement.  If faced with a dictated sweep direction or a fixed target and a swinger I may find that I am out of sequence and not using my strong hand to engage the more difficult targets such as a swinger.  A switchover (taking two consecutive shots with the same pistol) gets me back in the order I want.

You stated weren’t sure if it was one or two lead changes in the past, correct me if I am wrong but as far as I know that was never allowed.  In 2004 the order requirement was abolished and the term lead change as far as a penalty term pretty much went away.  I know it was discussed at one point that a lead change might be allowed but as far as I know it was never ratified because it was too confusing to keep track of by the observers.

Do you remember the days before there was a Frontier Cartridge Duelist category?  Many clubs were allowing it and that fact was even a point used in getting it as a sanctioned category in 2002 or 2003.  The possibility of having a Gunfighter sub-class in either Frontier Cartridge or both Black Powder classes keeps coming up as well as allowing Gunfighter style in any category.  So far it hasn’t passed in a Territorial Governor Summit.  If history is any indication it will at some point because I am now seeing matches offering Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter class, in fact the Midwest Classic 2008  coming up April 25th-27th has it http://www.randolphcountyruckus.com/QUMidwestClassic2008.pdf   . In May the Illinois State Shoot has it,  http://www.ilspringroundup.com/RegForm_2008_final.pdf  .  More matches:

http://www.thegreatnoreaster.com/results.html
http://www.wolverinerangers.org/RW2008Application.pdf
http://www.rrbill.com/HighlandApr06/High_April_06_scores.htm
http://www.mulecamp.com/mcstar/December%202005%20Star.pdf
and there are more all the time, if you do a simple search you will find many club and a growing number of sanctioned matches with this “non sanctioned” category. This is exactly what we saw with the Frontier Cartridge Dualist class before it became official.

 I know that in 2005 the Governors voted 156 for, 133 against with 6 abstaining for ratifying  Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter. We are in the majority now but we need a 2/3rds majority to get it ratified.  It will happen  sooner or later…I just want  it for both categories.

I think you misunderstood the nature of my question, or my answer.  I am not confused with the rules or about the particulars of a certain class, I am trying to determine how much of a spillover there already is towards getting us to the point we have Gunfighter in the Black Powder classes.  As you can see it is already slipping in under the door in Cartridge guns, I figured we might see a change in Plainsman before we would in Frontiersman because of the participation of the other classes and it is a not as stuffy as a “sanctioned class.”  Most who read this were probably unaware that there are already matches today with a Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter class,  I was hoping that there might be some who have already seen a change in some matches to allow Gunfighter in the Plainsman class, that was what I was “fishing for”  without just coming out and saying it.
Regards,
Mako

[Camille Eonich]

In the SASS handbook for the Plainsman Side Match Event it states , "This event requires two .36 caliber or larger Traditional style percussion revolvers, shot Duelist style."  Does this preclude shooting Gunfighter style in this category? In my opinion it really doesn't violate the spirit of the competition (or the cowboy way) and it is a form of the dualist style.

Has anyone ever had to deal with this question before, or does anyone know what the official ruing would be on this in a sanctioned match?

I think you misunderstood the nature of my question, or my answer.  I am not confused with the rules or about the particulars of a certain class, I am trying to determine how much of a spillover there already is towards getting us to the point we have Gunfighter in the Black Powder classes.  As you can see it is already slipping in under the door in Cartridge guns, I figured we might see a change in Plainsman before we would in Frontiersman because of the participation of the other classes and it is a not as stuffy as a “sanctioned class.”  Most who read this were probably unaware that there are already matches today with a Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter class,  I was hoping that there might be some who have already seen a change in some matches to allow Gunfighter in the Plainsman class, that was what I was “fishing for”  without just coming out and saying it.
Regards,
Mako

Wow!  Yep, I misunderstood the original question then.  It was my understanding that you were asking if you could shoot gunfighter in a Plainsman side match.  I missed the whole part about adding and entire new category for the main match.


Then again, I may still not understand.   

[Mako]

Thanks Camille,
Like I said I was fishing a bit.  I was wondering if I could get someone to speak up that they had been at a match where it was done.  I was also "begging the questions" so to speak to see who I could get to agree.  Some clubs actually call Gunfighter  "Double Dualist", you can search that phrase and see the category show up on their matches.  They just group a bunch of categories like Frontier, Frontier Cartridge together and Dualist and Double Dualist together.

Well as you can see Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter is well on its way. I'm just plugging for Frontiersman Gunfighter as well.
Thanks again,
Mako

[litl rooster]

Thanks Camille,
Like I said I was fishing a bit.  I was wondering if I could get someone to speak up that they had been at a match where it was done.  I was also "begging the questions" so to speak to see who I could get to agree.  Some clubs actually call Gunfighter  "Double Dualist", you can search that phrase and see the category show up on their matches.  They just group a bunch of categories like Frontier, Frontier Cartridge together and Dualist and Double Dualist together.

Well as you can see Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter is well on its way. I'm just plugging for Frontiersman Gunfighter as well.
Thanks again,
Mako

What I understand is you shoot either Gunfighter or shoot FC Duelist. In FC Duelist shooting double duelist [one in either hand, not at the same time] is okay. Still falls under Duelist catagory.  Shooting Gunfighter falls back to the B Western/ Gunfighter catagory, and doesn't matter what powder you use.  Now do I have it wrong?


I believe/hope your right about the Frontier Cart Gunfighter catagory, I know several who will be shooting that class

[Camille Eonich]

Well, I wanted to see what clubs had the double duelist category and see if the were SASS affiliated or not so I Googled double duelist, double dualist gets you nothing   .  In the 6 sets of scores that I looked at 5 had gunfighter, duelist and double duelist, 1 just had duelist and double duelist but there was only about 7 people in the match so they probably just didn't have anyone shooting gunfighter.

So it appears that they aren't allowing gunfighters in their double duelist category they are just breaking the double duelist out of duelist.  In my opinion double duelist have a pretty big advantage over regular duelist anyway.  All of the top duelist shooters around here shoot dd.

[Mako]

Camille,
I thought maybe I had gone off half cocked, so I checked …  There are hundreds of returns on the phrase Double Dualist.  I think I know the problem with your search, try entering “Double Dualist” in quotation marks and you will almost exclusively get SASS related results.  So it appears I am A.D. free this morning (but the day is young.)

Let me show you a few of the sites I found in about 5 minutes of searching.

Two clubs that refer to Gunfighter as “Double Dualist” or don’t have a separate category
http://www.sevenrr.com/about.pdf
http://www.riosaladocowboys.com/new_shooter_orientation.htm

BP Match allowing Gunfighter/Dualist/Double Dualists to enter
http://www.hootenoldtown.com/trexrequirements.htm

Match creates a new class called “Frontier Cowboy Category” allowing any one handed style including gunfighter.
http://www.mulecamp.com/Matchinfo.php

This group has a plethora of non-standard categories
http://www.affox.com/lfr/category.htm

Once again I will go back to what my original intent was.  Gunfighter Style outside of the SASS sanctioned categories of “Gunfighter and  “B-Western” is growing.  I gave several example of past and upcoming  matches(sanctioned ones) that have the “non-sanctioned” category of “Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter,” that is a simple and indisputable fact.  It is also a fact that ”Frontier Cartridge Dualist” came into being after sanctioned matches began including it as a “non-sanctioned” category and it finally won enough support with the Governors and  it became a sanctioned category.  It is also a fact that “Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter” has at least once in the last two years received a majority of support from the Territorial Governors,  but fell short of the number required to ratify it.
 
 If history is any indicator, then “Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter” will become a new sanction category.  I was hoping to ride the swell of the movement towards that becoming a category and getting “Frontiersman Gunfighter” in as a category.  I say swell because if you do a quick search you will find more matches (and it is growing) that are adding FCG as a category.  I think it is important to ride this popular swell because there are fewer Percussion Gunfighters and we need to ride the popular sentiment.

That’s it… I just wanna’ have fun, and we who shoot or want to shoot “Frontiersman Gunfighter” won’t be a threat to any category.  I have noticed that visitors to matches tend to gravitate towards the clouds of Black Powder smoke and are impressed with the Gunfighter style.  You can’t argue that anything which can attract new members or the interest of the general population is bad, or should be ignored.
 
My next crusade    will be to get Pump shotguns relegated to the “Modern Category” and “Traditional” renamed to something else and awarding the name “Traditional” to the truly traditional categories requiring one handed shooting.  But that is just something I have fun dreaming about. 

You have been a "gentlewoman" and my hat is off to you. This is besides the fact my mother would have slapped me nekkid and hid my clothes if I didn't doff my hat to a Lady in any circumstance.

Best Regards,
Mako

[Camille Eonich]

You do realize that the correct spelling in duelist don't you?  Try searching Google with the correct spelling and you will get more hits and they will be on the front page.

Hooten and Mulecamp are the only SASS affiliated clubs that I saw in your list.  The Sultan of Smoke, King Of Kaboom thing is like a match within the main match that they do during their state championship.  We have done that at our state match as well.  Mulecamp is know for creating new categories for the Southwest regional then getting them pushed through and approved by SASS.  Of course they do have a lot of pull with SASS being that Coyote Calhoun is a major player in Mule Camp.  Thanks to Mule Camp we have B-Western and Classic Cowboy and Frontier Cowboy will probably make it in too.  The way that I understand it Frontier Cowboy is Classic Cowboy with the BP requirement added in.


Once again I correct your thinking on who shoots what category.  In SASS sanctioned matches at SASS sanctioned clubs gunfighters do NOT shoot in the duelist category and are not a subset of the duelist category.  If you pull two loaded guns out and you aren't registered as Gunfighter or B-Western, now Frontier Cowboy at Mule Camp then you are going to get penalized.  Match directors may, at their discretion, add other categories that can be shot gunfighter.

Have you heard about the Outlaw Category that some clubs are adding?  I Hooten has Outlaw as an official category in their state championship.


As far as the Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter goes, more power to you.  There are plenty interested and you would get more input on the subject if you approached it from the angle of getting a new category created rather than from the Plainsman side match angle that you originally approached from.  The subject has been beat to death on the SASS wire.

[Mako]

Camille,

I stand corrected (as far as my spelling goes), it appears I have been having A.D.s, I can’t seem to spell anymore.  Once I get something in my mind I seem to continue to make the same mistake.

Before I go any further I want to thank you for illustrating exactly why I approached this subject using “Plainsman” Side matches as a starting point.  In your last paragraph you state, “As far as the Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter goes, more power to you.  There are plenty interested and you would get more input on the subject if you approached it from the angle of getting a new category created rather than from the Plainsman side match angle that you originally approached from.  The subject has been beat to death on the SASS wire.”   EXACTLY right!!!  Your very last sentence is why I used my approach.  Gunfighter in Frontier Cartridge has been “beaten to death” in online discussions as you put it.  That is not entirely true, it hasn’t been killed, but it has been hotly debated and widely discussed.  The debate and the continued inclusion of the category by reputable SASS clubs and sanctioned matches prove that it is not dead, but is in fact coming into its own.   I simply chose a different door knob to rattle, I asked the question to see if I could instigate debate about Gunfighter in a percussion class or a side match.  I don’t believe I could have gotten more input or a spirited discussion going back to the tired YES/NO discussions that as you say have been beaten to death about the FCG subject.  You provided exactly the sounding board I was looking for.  I thank you for that, and I mean it from the bottom of my heart and in the kindest fashion.

However, you still seem to think I am trying to find some way to wiggle in some legal way of redefining  Gunfighter using the existing rules.  You also seem to think I want to sneak Gunfighters into the Duelist categories, I do not.  I merely pointed out some matches don’t differentiate them when participation is too low for separate classes.  My whole appeal has not been to allow Gunfighters into the Duelist Categories but to create two new categories in the Black Powder genre.  I also said that because of the plethora of categories smaller matches and clubs would probably just bunch the people shooting  one handed together unless there was sufficient participation in a particular class to break it out.  I also used the examples  such as the Frontier Cowboy category as an example of just that.

I am thrilled to death that Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter as a sanctioned category appears to be just around the corner.  In your replies you give a lot of  weight to official SASS clubs and matches,  so let’s go with that and I have a few questions.  Do you deny that the Midwest Classic 2008 http://www.randolphcountyruckus.com/QUMidwestClassic2008.pdf   or the 2008 SASS Illinois State Shoot  http://www.ilspringroundup.com/RegForm_2008_final.pdf  are sanctioned matches?  I mention those two because I posted them earlier.   I will say it once again… Both of those matches (and both are SASS sanctioned) have “non-sanctioned” categories  in there with the rest of the standard categories.  Those specifically being “Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter,” and in the case of the state match there is also a ladies class.  I’m not talking about side matches, I am talking about categories one declares themselves to be in.  My point is this and only this… Gunfighter in classes outside of the two currently sanctioned categories (Gunfighter and B-Western) is not coming, IT IS ALREADY HERE!  And, I will say once again we saw the same trend right before The Duelist sub-class was added to Frontier Cartridge.

My whole motive has been to open the debate trying  a different door than that which has already been opened.  I am campaigning for a Percussion class that allows Gunfighter.  We are already at a disadvantage to those using cartridge guns, I will continue to compete against them until the day I can do so on a more level playing field.  If the FCG class is sanctioned first then I hope I will be allowed to participate in that class using Percussion Revolvers without penalty.  That will get me one step closer to what I really want and partially level the field by taking away the advantage of Smokeless Powder.
 So once again the reason I used the Plainsman Side Matches as a starting point was because I hoped I could get the support or interest from the multiple Classes that currently participate in the Side Matches in our quest to get some relief for Percussion Gunfighters.  As you have aptly pointed out it takes clubs like Mulecamp and those trying to meet the needs and wishes of the Cowboy Action Shooting community to effect change.  Those are also the clubs which create the varied side matches we now enjoy.

So until the day I am allowed to compete in the coming Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter class or until that  great day I will finally have a class that recognizes Percussion Gunfighters, when I pull both pistols I am not deluding myself that I not am not technically competing in the current  Gunfighter  class as SASS defines it.

Once again thank you for the comments, I only wish more people were reading the thread because that was my original goal.

Best Regards,
Mako

[Camille Eonich]

Match directors may, at their discretion, add other categories that can be shot gunfighter.

[Tensleep]

Mako, where do you shoot?
What clubs do you shoot with?