Schofield the original 'N' Frame?

[WaddWatsonEllis]

During a conversation on guns, someone whose knowledge I respect stated 'OF course {they feel like a Combat Masterpiece [my original comment]}  .... the Schofield was the original N Frame.

I nodded knowingly and googled 'N Frame' when I got home ... although I found out what an 'N Frame' was, I saw no mention of Schofield.

Anyone got an answer?

[Pettifogger]

Utter, absolute, rubbish.  The Schofield was a top break revolver.  It bears no resemblance to the swing cylinder, solid top strap N frame.

[St. George]

No resemblance whatsoever...

Whoever is furthering/nurturing 'that' idea is as full of crap as a Christmas goose...

This is yet another example of actual research and reference books having value far beyond opinion and consensus.

Scouts Out!

[Shotgun Franklin]

While the Schofield was a large frame S&W gun it wasn't even the first, just an improvement.

[Trailrider]

The Schofield is a modification of the #3 (large frame) breaktop single action revolvers.  The "N-frame" is an evolution of the DA, swing-out "Hand Ejector."  The N-frame 1st Models were introduced in 1907 in .44 Russian and .44 Special.  When the .44 Magnum came along, the N-frame was capable, with modifications to handle the higher pressures, and also those of the .357 Magnum.

[Shotgun Franklin]

Of course I think there's still a place for Large Frame Breaktop S&W Revolvers, I'd also like to see'm at a more modest price.
Most folks think that unless they happen to be packing a hi-cap semi-auto that they incapable of defending themselves. The big Breaktops are also a lot of fun to shoot. Ok, rant over, for now.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Shotgun,

No rant at all ... before I started shooting with SASS, my 'personal defense' gun was a Webley Scott Mk VI with the cylinder back end cut down to fit .45 ACP with Moon Clips. It also shoots .45 Auto Rim with ease, but unfortunately .45 Schofield does not fit ... length-wise or width-wise. (Yeah, I tried  .... LOL).



P.S. The Parkerised Webley cost me $150; the holster another $15 ...

[Flint]

The top break revolvers, and the earlier tip-up revolvers by S&W were numbered by frame size, #1 was small frame .22 caliber (the very first cartridge 22, the modern 22 is based on).  #1-1/2 & #2 were 32 caliber the #2 slightly larger, but still pocket pistol size.  #3 was a .41 and .44 , larger frame.

With the transition to top break, the number reference to frame size continued similarly.  #3 frame was used for 44 American, 44 Russian, 45 Schofield, and later New Model #3 target models in 32, 38, 38-40 and 44 calibers. 

The top break pocket pistols were #1-1/2 for 32 cal (cenrerfire), the 38 was called a "Baby Russian", later just .38 Single Action.

The swing out hand ejectors did not use a number code, but a letter code. The "I" frame in .22, 32 and .38, later redesignated as a "J" frame.   J frame 38's are 5-shot revolvers. The "K" frame was basically larger, allowing 6 shots in .38.  The larger "N" frame was made in .357 Mag, 41, 44 and .45 calibers.  More recent is the intermediate "L" frame in .357, an almost "N" frame with a "K" frame grip size.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Flint,

Thank you so much for your thoughtfulness and help on my obvious lack of knowledge in this area.

I am sure it is like talking baby talk to get this basic with the Smith and Wesson, but it is something that I needed.

It is like a basic white sauce in a cookbook ... it is so generic that most cookbooks start by saying 'make up a white sauce' ... one of my personal successes was finding a cookbook that actually had a 'white sauce ' recipe.

The same situations seem to exist with the Smith and Wesson ... people and articles would refer to a 1,1 1/2, 2 or 3 as if everyone knew ... as well as the J, K, and N frames. About like reading the American Journal of Medicine without having a biology class and a copy of Grey's Anatomy.

I should have pulled out all the stops and read all the articles ... but between the books required here an the books required for California History, as well as the books required for Bible studies, I am several light years behind the power curve in my reading, and probably shalll remain so until my demise .... again, thank you so much Flint ...

[Cole Younger]

The Schofield evolved from Smith and Wesson's first large-frame revolver.  That's about the only way the assertion could be taken halfway seriously.  The 1st American, Smith's first production large-frame would be a more likely candidate.  But then there is the whole DA-SA thing that the other posters have discussed.  The whole thing is rather fanciful IMO. 

[WaddWatsonEllis]

That was my feeling about the conversation; that the person was talking out of his hat .... but the person is not only a partner in a gun shop that specialises in SASS, but shoots SASS as well ... so as a relative newby to the sport, I took his word as more truth than fiction ...

I agree that I should have gone to do the research in the library, but my volunteer hours run basically longer than the library is open, and here in California there is not a large amount of gun research material at the library anyway. It would have meant taking off time from the kitchen I volunteer in, ordering the books, waiting two weeks to a month to get the books, taking time off again from volunteering to get the books, and doing the research to find the answer.

So I caved and went for the immediate answer through this forum. Mea culpa.

Thanks to all of you who have helped with the answers ... I now know not to pass on the drivel that was given to me as gospel!

[Flint]

The discussion wasn't about DA and SA actions, but about frame size.  The Schofield is based on the S&W American, judging from the gripshape, the Russian being quite different in that area.  The later New Model #3's were closer to the Russian in grip shape, and reproduced by Uberti/Beretta as the Laramie.

Perhaps S&W changed from a number code to a letter code in the hand ejector DA guns to avoid confusion with the breaktops.

[Shotgun Franklin]

Not really, they did have frames sizes, as in J, K, N, but the numbers for different models came much later. I once owned a Police issue 'Military & Police' K frame, the same gun was later called the Model 10.

[Dr. Bob]

WWE,

For an all around reference for firearms from our period, you can't beat "Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms and their value"  You can find it on Amazon and is invaluable as a single book covering most of the firearms that we are interested in.  I keep my ancient on by the computer for quick reference.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Dr. Bob,

Flaydermans is an excellent idea ...it is going to have to go to the top of my list!

But for right now, I have just found out in the last six months that my 'second cousin' (actually my great uncle's grand daughter) has taken the center of my namesake Wadd Watsoon Elli's's farm and made it a bed and breakfast .... so all my money is being set aside to stomp around on my great-grandfather's ranch and pay my respects at his grave in Dilley ...

Here is the website for the Bed and Breakfast ..... BTW, Sam Houston Ellis was my great uncle, and Daisy was his wife

http://www.llanoriver.com/

[Books OToole]

Not really, they did have frames sizes, as in J, K, N, but the numbers for different models came much later. I once owned a Police issue 'Military & Police' K frame, the same gun was later called the Model 10.

For the 19th century, break-top (& tip-up) Smith & Wessos the frames were:

# 1       - .22
# 1 1/2 - .32
# 2      - .32 belt sized and 1875ish and later .38
# 3      - .44 (American, Russian, Schofield, New Model 3 and the DA .44.)

The "# 2" sized .38s are roughly the size of a round butt J-frame.

I have been told that the DA .44 is the same as the K-framed round butt.  The rest of the  # threes are all over the board.

Books

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Books,

Thanks; that makes sense!

Now I will be armed witht the information so that I can correct the conversation rather thatn letting it ride ....