***PHOTO*** Civilian Army Scouts with Spencers

[Two Flints]

CIVILIAN SCOUTS OR ARMY PACKERS WITH SPENCERS CARBINES. Ca. 1870's. (3) Scouts sitting in studio all appear to be wearing scout garb, great hats, vests & Spencer Carbines. Photo by Mrs. M. Gainsford, Great Bend, Kansas. On original photo, bottom of image out of focus.

Two Flints

[Harve Curry]

Unless this is a reversed image, the man with the carbine strap is wearing it on the wrong side, and the buckle would be on his back arranged so the tounge of it hung down.
Could it be reversed like the famous Billy the Kid photo's?

[Two Flints]

Harve,

I aim to please, does this look better to you?

Two Flints

[Harve Curry]

eequuilla Two Flints, me tinks you feexed it!

[Two Flints]

Hi Harve,

The first photo I posted was an exact copy of the original, so the original was apparently a reversed/mirror image of the subjects, typical of that time period.  If I'm wrong on this, please let me know.  By the way I was able to tweak the entire photo, adding more contrast to the entire photo for a better "look see".

Thanks,

Two Flints

[Harve Curry]

Goodmorning Two Flints,
I think you corrected it. It makes sense now with the firearms on the "strong side" , meaning right handed. It's a great picture showing some neat clothes styles. Thanks for posting it.
I think regulation would have had the carbine strap buckle on the back, but this is a civilian photo op.

The famous Billy the Kid photo had the reverse image also (the reason for the left handed gun) the way the particular camera worked in those days. I understand that last original has deterioated and turned black.

[Fox Creek Kid]

It looks like a tintype, fellas, and a great one at that. Probably late 1860's to early 1870's. Notice the attire. Nothing like the movies or modern CAS shooters, eh? Thanks Two Flints, that is a wonderful glimpse of the REAL Old West.

[Deadeye Don]

Very cool picture.  Thanks for sharing it with us all.

[Harve Curry]

The more these old photographs are copied the better because they get lost or self destruct with time.
If I may reccommend; If you like cavalry history another good site for seeing old photos is militaryhorse.org

[Longhornboot]

It's a great picture, but I think it was right to start with.
Notice the way the vest buttons, also isn't that the carbine ring visable in the center ?
It's probably a military flap holster worn on the right hip but forward.
The sling is worn on the wrong side, but it could be to balance uo the picture, it's very short also.

Boot.

[Harve Curry]

I can't tell. If that is the saddle ring on the Spencer, then it belongs on the left side of the gun. That would clinch it.

[2 Hatchet]

Hi SSS,
  Hey I would agree with LongHornBoot on this one. The photo appears to be correct the way Two Flints posted it. When he reposted it he reversed the image. Maybe the reason the guy with the carbine sling is wearing it incorrectly is that it could just be a photographers prop. So maybe not acually owned and used by the guy in the photo. The Spencers could also be props owned by the photographer and just used to pose for the photograph. Just a thought!  I've seen the same thing done with a lot of Indian photos using studio props. Warbonnets,Pipebags, Weapons.  2 Hatchet

[Longhornboot]

I know that a lot of props were used by photographers, but I don't think that is the case here.

I believe the three matching Spencer carbines are owned by the subjects, also the sling. Even if the sling was a prop, I'm sure the young man would know on which side to carry his gun.

There's a famous series of photographs taken by the quartermaster department to illustrate the types of equipments in use, in one of these the sling is reversed purely so it can be seen in the picture.

Boot.

[Two Flints]

Hello Longhornboot,

Are these the photos you mentioned in your post?

Comparison: QM Photograph (1866)


Official Atlas Illustration (c.1891)


Comparison: QM Photograph (1866) and Official Atlas Illustration (c.1891)

The differences between the engraving and the photograph are very telling. In the QM photograph the cavalryman wears his carbine slung on the left side. Cavalrymen always wore their carbine sling as it appears in the engraving (carbine on the right or off side). The artist or his editor appear to have corrected the error appearing in the QM (Quartermaster) photograph. Those taking the QM photographs may have been more interested in the equipage than correct manner of wear or may not have been familiar with cavalry practices. In the QM photo his Spencer carbine can be seen while in the engraving it is behind him.

The Quartermaster Department requested an appropriation of Congress to produce images documenting the regulation uniform of the Civil War. This shows a great deal of vision on the part of those who advanced the idea at the time and the collection of images provides a wealth of information for those studying uniforms of the period. The oblivious problem with the collection is that it does not reflect the true appearance of soldiers in the field. A model was dressed in various uniforms from the depot stock. It is possible that some of the images may even not picture totally correct regulation dress.

[Longhornboot]

Yes, that's one from the same series.
I don't think it was by accident or mistake that the sling is worn the wrong way, I think it was purely to illustrate the equipment as it would mostly be out of view if worn correctly.
Also of note in one of the other pictures from the series the carbine cartridge box is worn on the sling again I think this is for illustration purposes as this would not be a practical way of wearing it.

Boot.