Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L

From the SASS TG Summit Agenda:

7. Revisit the Henry Big Boy. Should it be legal?

Action Type: Lever
Caliber:
.44 Mag /.44 Special / .45 Colt

Capacity: 10 rounds
Barrel Length: 20'' octagonal with 1:38rh rate of twist

Length: 38 1/2'' Overall
Weight: 8.68 lbs.
Stock: Straight-grip American walnut

Sights: Adjustable Marble semi-buckhorn rear with white diamond insert and brass beaded front sight

Finish: Solid top brass receiver, brass buttplate and brass barrel band

At first I said no.  When people said, "Then ya gotta throw out the Vaquero too" I said, "At least it sorta looks like a colt.  The BB doesn't look like nuthin'".

But... what the hay.  I still don't like it peronally, but It looks "cowboy" enough.  As long as it doesn't offer an advantage, let it in. 

This is a game after all.

No.

Vaquero was let in when clones weren't readily available.  Can't throw them out now.

Yah, why not?  It's ugly, but mebbe the long delay will encourage the company to build a more period correct rifle.

Plus, if a pard already has one, why force him to sell it if he wants to shoot CAS?

But I wouldn't touch one a them with YOUR screwdriver. :o

I still says no!  If a manufacturer can get any cowboy "looking" rifle admitted, you might start to see some come out with some real competitive modifications!  Do we want to open the door to the possibility?

Doc

"Competitive modifications" Doc?  Like Shilen barrels and short strokes on a Ruger?  Har!  Physician, thy needs healing.

No, not like that.  Those are things that can be done.  But different hammer/trigger designs aimed at particular categories, and other stuff like that.  Let your imagination go!  This might be a road that we don't want to go down.

Aside from the fact that it still doesn't meet the rule.  Allowing the rifle really means changing the rule regarding rifles that are allowed.

Doc

I said No to our TG's last year and still sticking with my story ...
Got this feeling the Chiz and the WB are still on the quick buck quest for more $$$ in their pockets from every Tom-Dick and Harry.
The objective has to be:  With the increased popularity of CAS, keep saying No to the 'well it has a lever action' and this will induce the manufacturers to build 'original clones' ... ya no flaming now with the Taurus Lightning; with good externals and a whole new ball game with the internals.  At least they have the externals and the price right

  I know folks say- it's advertised in the CC and it should be legal but I don't know- what's illegal about it?  I may be naive' about this and I'd bet there are others.  I know of 3 shooters who are buying them.  I guess I don't get what's good, bad or ugly. ;)  

I don't see it as the camel's nose in the tent.  The rifle does NOT present a competitive advantage to anyone.  It's a lever-action, exposed-hammer, pistol caliber rifle.  If someone else down the road presents a rifle along the lines Doc is suggesting, then let the TGs take a long and hard look at it.  Support the manufacturers that supoprt the sport.  "Let it in" is my vote.

I'll vote with Doc on this one. 

There has to be limits.....shoot, I have a design background in paintball...I could put a 12 gram Co2 in the butt, lifting the lever off an actuator would power a ram to run a toggle system action...bottom line, 1/8" stroke and none of it would show on the outside of the rifle.....there has to be limits, both on authenticity and modifications.

Why not, it is a CAS caliber gun.
So, when they will have it, let they do so

Yup... let it in.

It looks and functions "cowboy"... and there are a hell of a lot of people playing cowboy in this sport who've never sat a horse, held a rope, smelled a cow on a hot summer's day or faced a loaded weapon muzzle-on.
But THEY look and function "cowboy" for a short time each month...

And for crying out loud... it's not as though every Tom, Dick and Harry is gonna run right out and buy one!
Jeez, gimme a break!
With the ticket price on the Big Boy, a fella could buy TWO EMF Model 92s, a good used '73 or '66.
There are those who want to own the rifle and want to shoot it in CAS--  so why not let them?

The RIFLE isn't going to give a shooter an advantage or beat another shooter... only practice will do that.

BJD

No,
It is not a HENRY anything!! Instead of building this gun, they could have as easily built a copy of the Improved Henry (the 1866). But they chose to build a clunky rifle that doesn't resemble anything. The Rugers unfortunatlely were grand fathered into SASS at a time when they were just about the only thing in town.

I'm against it.  SASS keeps reconsidering the Henry ONLY because of Henry advertising revenue.  The loading system is a poor and possibly unsafe design.  Genuine Henry rifles must be loaded with due regard.  The Henry BB is NOT a CAS rifle.  It is a clunky looking hunting rifle.  I'm against it.

This is what I told one of my TG's on why it should not be legalized.  He did not agree with me:

First, thank you for asking.  I am sure that it is functionally good to go.  I am opposed for two reasons.  The first is simple the second is more complex.  I do not feel it is a close enough reproduction of anything pre-1900.  If you look at the yellow boy or a Henry, real or Italian, I do not think that the ten foot rule would hold.  I do believe at 10 feet, it would be real hard for a RV or a Colt Cowboy not to pass the 10 foot test. 

The second reason is more of a principled statement.  Henry knew the SASS and NCOWS rules and requirements before they developed the Henry.  I believe that Henry blatantly disregarded them because they could develop a more inexpensive product and still tried to actively market them to the CAS community.  If we let them have a "pass" on the Henry Big Boy then what will that tell other manufactures.  We can not let the manufactures dictate to us what we will shoot.  It has to be a market driven situation instead of a product driven situation.  That gives us as shooters and as CAS participants more power in the relationship.  We have rules, Henry did not abide by them.  We can not reward them for that.

No and here is what I told one of my TG's.

First, thank you for asking.  I am sure that it is functionally good to go.  I am opposed for two reasons.  The first is simple the second is more complex.  I do not feel it is a close enough reproduction of anything pre-1900.  If you look at the yellow boy or a Henry, real or Italian, I do not think that the ten foot rule would hold.  I do believe at 10 feet, it would be real hard for a RV or a Colt Cowboy not to pass the 10 foot test. 

The second reason is more of a principled statement.  Henry knew the SASS and NCOWS rules and requirements before they developed the Henry.  I believe that Henry blatantly disregarded them because they could develop a more inexpensive product and still tried to actively market them to the CAS community.  If we let them have a "pass" on the Henry Big Boy then what will that tell other manufactures.  We can not let the manufactures dictate to us what we will shoot.  It has to be a market driven situation instead of a product driven situation.  That gives us as shooters and as CAS participants more power in the relationship.  We have rules, Henry did not abide by them.  We can not reward them for that.

I agree with the Major.  Henry could just as well built a gun that at least resembles a 19the century rifle.  Something like the Whitney comes to mind.  They had their chance and instead chose to built this ugly gun.

It isn't like the Vaquero where we didn't have a lot to choose from in the early days.  We have plenty of rifles that are clones or reintroduced models.  There just isn't a reason to allow them.  They are a exact reproduction of a gun that never existed. :(  I also have a problem with their trying to connect themselves with the original Henry rifle.  They imply in their ads that there rifle is a direct decedent.

Will Ketchum

No Sir, I don't believe it should ,.....they should have to conform to the rules just like everyone else should, yes my Uberti Henry loads from the end but it is an original design..............let them start over and do it right this time.............Thanks for hearing us....

We should support this rifle. It should be allowed in a modern category.
We already have a multitude of guns from China, Italy, and the USA allowed for use in SASS/CAS that didn't EXIST in the 19th century so this rifle really needs to be allowed. Stop the nonsense.

Howdy,

In a nutshell.  This gun had it's chance.  It failed.. let's move on.
Regarding Henry Arms.. I will not support a company that uses such deceptive language and advertising, American or not.

Adios,

With all due respect, No. Major Matt Lewis and Will Ketchum summed it up the best that it is a copy of nothing. The Henry Big Boy would not pass a fifty foot rule let alone the ten foot rule. I hate to turn my back on an American manufacturer, but to build a turd like the Big Boy and use the deceptive advertising that Henry has about it's use in CAS just doesn't sit well with me.

Howdy,

While I'm thinking about it.. My issue with the Big Boy is specfically with the parent company and the advertising.  I think that SASS should be the big welcome mat of CAS.  They allow just about anything remotely cowboy and, in the future, if a company meets certain requirements (like not advertising acceptance beforehand) the guns should be allowed.

Adios,

I'm all for it. Besides it's a rarity to have a new USA all American made rifle.
Half the guns used in SASS didn't exist anyway in the 19th century, so what's the big deal. Put it in  a modern category and support American gun makers, period.<.

Here's my take on that.. how about an American company doing it right.. then I'll support them whole-heartedly.
Henry ain't that company.  Adios,

I'm with Big Hext on this one,............the rules for acceptable firearms was laid out,......plain and simple,.............if you ask a man to build you a 1400sq ft ranch style house and he built you a 2000 sq ft tri-level cause he thought it would suit you better would you buy it or tell him get lost...............

No, it's not a 19th century firearm design.  IMO, the Ruger Vaquero should be disallowed to but I understand why it was grandfathered in and the history of the decision.  Hell, I don't even like the 1890's guns and won't shoot them even though the gamers all do  ;D

Well it's a lever action rifle, nothing to fancy about it.  Buck horn sights and all.  Don't see no difference between that and anything else.  It has the right flavor about it.

I don't mind the RV's either, although you have a very distinct competetive advantage with them.  I don't chose to shoot them at this time but the people who do sure place better than me.  Seen a lot of Blackhawks out there too.

So I vote heck yes, shoot'em if you want to.

But I'm sure this debate will go on forever. It's not exactly up to snuff but like rubber tires on your gun cart, it should work and fit in just fine.

I'm glad it is up for a vote this year. I won't be voting for it because it is not a Henry and because of the deceptive advertising.

Why am I glad there is a vote on it? Because last year, the rule was passed that if something was voted down, it can't be readdressed in the following years. I like that.


AnnieLee

In the 1980's all revolvers with coil springs were modern category at End of Trail. Rugers are to big and really far removed from anything like a orignal Colt or clone to be fair competition.

Just cause the hood shuts on the '68 Mustang with a original carbureted 302 or a new 302/5.0 injected and turbo-charged doesn't make them equally competitive.

But the cats already out of the bag and has been for a long time.

Action jobs as we have did not exist.
Short strokes did not exist.
Marlin 1895 as made today, the 336 model, did not exist. It was a square bolt gun.
Birdshead grips on single action revolvers did not exist. Just to name a few.

Starting a business and surviving is HARD.
Starting a new gun business is HARDER. Does anyone think about that? I'm amazed at the amount of hardnose toward this company because their rifle does'nt conform just so. Rugers don't either.

We need to support American Gun Makers and all the good that will come from it. It employs people in a city that's anti gun for petes sake.

The rifle will be fine in the modern category.

Harve,

I'm sure the so called Henry Rifle Company will do just fine with the other products they sell. Hopefully they will be around long enough to build a rifle that at least resembles a rifle of the Old West and not a tank, if they do, I will be the first in line to buy it. Not the Big Boy!!

Bill

Quote

Starting a new gun business is HARDER. Does anyone think about that? I'm amazed at the amount of hardnose toward this company because their rifle does'nt conform just so. Rugers don't either.

Quote

I'm sure it is hard to start a company and keep it running.  But the SASS rule book is/was clear on what is required.  Henry knew what they had to make to be eligible as a SASS firearm.  The onous is on them, not SASS.

If the Italians can make repros that meet the specs why can't Henry?

I vote no.  Heck SASS rules are watered down so much as it is, lets not totally dilute them.

The poll, thus far, is running over two to one against the Henry Big Boy. My pard BJD makes some good points in favor of the BB and others make some equally good points against it.

As far as the "deceptive" advertising, that many have alluded to here is concerned, let me say this. First of all there never was a "Henry Rifle Company" prior to the incorporation of the present company in discussion. The first practical repeating breechloading rifle, a .44 rf, developed by Benjamin Tyler Henry in 1860 was made by the New Haven Arms Company. The Henry was the forerunner of the Winchester, for New Haven Arms, reorganized as the Winchester Repeating Arms Company. Henry preferred to be called by his middle name. Thus most historical accounts refer to him as B. Tyler Henry. Henry was a gunsmith and engineer employed by New Haven. Oliver Winchester owned the company which was having financial dificulties and reorganized as the Winchester Repeating Arms Company in 1866. Winchester felt that Henry should be recognized for his achievement and thus named the new rifle for him.

In late 1866, the Winchester Repeating Arms Company, began manufacturing a vastly improved version of the famous Henry rifle, made by by its predecessor, the New Haven Arms Company.  The new rifle had no specific name at the time, but there were references to an "improved Henry". Later it became known as the Model 1866, or "66".  When enough guns had been made to build up an inventory, the, new model was introduced to the public Early records and catalogs show the Henry Rifle being listed as the Winchester Model 1866.  One Winchester catalog states, "The latest improvemeents consist of an entire change in the magazine and arrangement for filling it."

The new model contained a number of modifications to the Henry rifle. The Most notable changes included a loading gate in the right side of the receiver, a completely enclosed magazine tube, and a wooden forearm. The new rifle retained essentially the same brass frame, brass butt plate, and wooden butt stock found on the Henry. The 1866 was the first to bear the Winchester name. The early 1866 rifles bore the name "Winchester Model 1866  King's Improvement" on the side of the barrel. King was the employee who redesigned the Henry to load from a loading gate.

Having given you a bit of history I see no deception in the company calling themselves the Henry Rifle Company.

Now as far as advertising the Big Boy as a CAS rifle is concerned. When the first prototype was made and pics appeared on the company web site I spoke at length with company president Anthony Imperato about the BB & suggested changes. He told me that he had gone to a SASS match in New York state & was told by the shooters that they wanted a larger caliber version of the Golden Boy 22. The company decided to make it and first brought it out in 44 Mag because the original Henry was chambered in 44.  He also said that it was too late to make changes because of the time & money invested in tooling for the new BB.

Mr. Imperato assumed that the rifle would be accepted by SASS because of the conversations he had with local SASS members. We all know what often happens when we assume something. He should stop promoting the rifle as a SASS rifle suitable for CAS until (or if) it is accepted. I don't believe there was any intentional deception.

When I started CAS in '95 I selected the Ruger Vaqueros as my pistols of choice because of the price, forever warranty & strength. I didn't like the way the fit my hands and the weight. I soon learned that because of the light loads we shoot in Cas that I didn't really need the strength & weight & in 2000 I sold them and purchased a pair of the then new AWA Peacekeepers. The RV is not really a clone of a SAA but it does pass the 10 ft test. A friend that I recently introduced to CAS purchased a brass framed Rossi '92, (which Winchester nebver made) & it too passes the 10 ft test. From that distance or farther it is easily mistaken for a 66.

Since those two are acceptable for CAS perhaps the Big Boy should be accepted. The ultimate decision will be made by the TG's who should follow the wishes of their constintuents. 

What is all this hog wash about having to support a companies illegal inferior product because they are American.  As an American consumer, we have the right to dictate companies who want our business what we want.  Henry tried to cheat that premise.  We did not support New Coke, we did not support The Edsel and nor did we support a bunch of collective junk.  The Big Boy falls into that catagory in my opinion.  If Henry wants to compete then they should let the market decide on what they produce and not some oversized .22.  That my friends is the American way in business, survival of the fit.

Yep ,..it looks like one of those cheap Chinese made toys you find in the Dollar Store,.......you know the ones that just aren't quite right........ ;D

Yeah, Chappie...
Just like the Norinco 97s and SxS ;D

Just out of curiosity... for those of you who refer to the Henry Big Boy as an inferior piece of junk... have you ever held one? Shot one?
I have...
... and I wish the Italian imports were as smooth and well made right out of the box as the Henrys I've handled.
I'm partial to 92s so I probably would never own a Big Boy... but some folks would like to use them in their favorite sport and shouldn't be denied the pleasure.

Insofar as not supporting the Henry Company: shame on you "gun owners" who don't.
In this day and age, EVERY gun company needs our support, whether we like the products or not.
All too soon we'll be saying, "Remember when we could buy anything we wanted?"

I agree with those who state the Henry should be allowed in the "Modern" category... just as the revolvers with adjustable sights are allowed.

BJD

I'll tell ya again.. there are two issues.

I've handled and shot a big boy. The gun, standing alone, I'd accept in Modern or just as a regular match gun.  I don't want one, but that's my choice. 

As for SHAME?  The shame is on Henry.  I am amazed to see folks who regularly stand up for what is right and good giving this company a pass.  Again your choice, but I refuse to feel the smallest bit of guilt if this Henry company goes down in flames.  Who's crying over AWA right now?

Adios,

You said it BJD!

I was trying to say it, but you said it better.

Also at your next shoot, go down the line and pull every stainless weapon there, everyone that's wearing blue jeans and every plastic grip.  

I don't mind any of these things by the way.  I always thought it was about going out and having a good time in a competitive way.

I don't have the big boy, but I certainly don't mind shooting against one.

Quote from: Rattler on October 07, 2004, 03:27:21 PM
Besides the fact that this THING is any ugly weapon,it just doesn't cut it.It in no way resembles a 19th century lever gun.If you like this this then maybe paintball is your game. :o

And opinion is an opinion, why is someone always trying to degrade, make fun or make less of another person who dont believe the way you do?

It's ok to believe what you believe, and it's ok to stress your opinion, you can do this without making fun of the person.

Now I haven't tried paitball myself, but who knows, maybe someday.   :-*

What a statement " inferior gun", because it's not a race gun made in china and modified in detroit. One of these days we're going to be fighting the chinese with the modern weapons they made from selling SASS/CAS's the 87's, 87's & sxs's they sold to us along with all the other neat stuff they market in the chinese dollar stores around the country. How many of our soldiers have already been killed with ammo & weapons of chinese manufacture?! Maybe even think past the SASS rule book it sure as hell ain't no bible.
Vote for Kerry and get it over with while your at it, is how I feel about it, it does all go together. ::)

Boston John,....The one I shot was rougher than a cob and the guy that owned it, when he shot it, you could hear him cussing it under his breath as he shot, he also said he wished he could get rid of it......

I have to agree with the opposition. Since much of what we do is based on period correctness, let's let that be the deciding factor. We needed Rugers at one time so we don't want to make half the shooters get new gear. We don't have to allow new stuff that is incorrect. If a manufacturer wants to make a new gun that diverges from original designs but can't be told from an original, that's one thing. Making a whole new design and pawning if off as being kinda like what we thought they could have been like if someone had just made one back then is a whole different issue. I don't like the Omni for the same reason.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox, now.

Well, it's 2 to 1 to not let it be allowed.  I voted then read all the replys, there are a lot of good arguments for and against.  In my opinion, if Henry wanted to market the Big Boy to the Cowboy Action Shooter, they should have complied with the requirements listed in the SASS rules.

Quote from: Joss House on October 07, 2004, 06:33:10 PMCould it be that some things just automatically get accepted because of the Company name?
I remember when the Omni Potent fell by the wayside as well.

Interesting point.  Somebody help me out here.... Wasn't the Omni turned down because it is a single-action version of a gun that was originally double-action?  Just like the Lightning and Thunderer?

Nevermind.....

"The design of the Omni is a unique and Patented design. The centerline of the shooters hand and the gun barrel are on parallel axis. The Single Action revolver allows the force of the shot to travel through the shooters hand and by recoil turn the pistol upward under force of the cartridge. The Omni is designed so that the force of the cartridge is translated straight back - following the centerline of the gun established by the cylinder pin and barrel axis.

This results in much less muzzle flip so that you can stay on your target. The high spur hammer means that in most two handed shooting, like Cowboy Action Shooting, the hammer is easy to reach. Although not a gun of history, the Omni-Potent Six-Shooter is a modern classic with the lines of the 19th century."

"All the Rugers just seem to slide by without question."

Correction.  As JH said, all it has to do it "look cowboy".  All of the aforementioned cowboy-looking guns slid by.....


... except the Omni and the BB.

And both of them advertised themselves as approved for SASS use BEFORE the fact.  It seems that is much more the issue..

Adios,

I wouldn't object as much if they made a blued steel reciever version, I don't know what it is with Henry that they want to make everything brass!?  The blued steel Henry .22 is a real nice little rifle. And I'm not against brass frames as I shoot a '66 as my main CAS rifle, I just think the BB is butt ugly.

 So that's it then?  The Henry Big Boy is just butt ugly?
The argument although winning by the poll numbers, is pretty thin. Emotions I guess.
I can think of at least 6 arms that did not exist.

Any short stroked lever action rifle.
Any revolver or rifle with coil springs working the hammer and hands in it.
Rugers in general.
Ruger Old Army's.
Any birds head grip on a single action revolver, small or large frame.
SxS shotguns with phoney hammers.
Chinese 1887-so called, shotguns with trick actions , but are really a 1901 update with additional 2001 year updates.
So the period correct argument is out the window.  ::)

The action of a Henry Big Boy is similar to a Marlin 336 round bolt lever action.

It should be allowed in the modern category with the rest of the western fantasy arms.

No it should not be legal. I used to re-enact Civil War and a unauthentic rifle like that never would have been allowed but some AUTHENTIC Henrys were. How this company can claim this is a Henery rifle in the old sense is perplexing to me. It side ejects and loads like a 1866! I realize CAS doesn't hold to the same authenticity as Civil war but there has to be a line somewhere. This gun DID NOT EXIST in the old west! Internal modifcations like on the RV are OK because they don't really change the outward appearance of the gun. I don't beleive these "Henrys" offer any advantage, but if we will allow a gun that did not exist can I use a ar-15 with 9mm ammo? I know its just a game, but all games have rules.

Doc said, " It side ejects and loads like a 1866!"  Ok, legal, case closed, move on...........

Michael,
Actually it is nothing like the 1866. The Big Boy is loaded via the magazine tube just like a lot of .22 rifles and is angle eject. The 1866 loads from the side via a loading gate and ejects from the top. Sorry.......................... ;)

Quote from: Joss House on October 07, 2004, 08:25:11 PM

Quote from: Marshal Will Wingam on October 07, 2004, 08:08:11 PM
Making a whole new design and pawning if off as being kinda like what we thought they could have been like if someone had just made one back then is a whole different issue. I don't like the Omni for the same reason.

Problem is we now have Cimmaron Lightnings and Thunderers, Rugers with 3" bbl's& birdshead grips, brass frame 92's,Russian shotguns with exposed outside non functioning hammers, non of which are authentic in design to any original design. Same with the Omni. I'm not in favor of any of them, just pointing out one sided bias's.

Glad to see we agree on that. I personally don't own anything that isn't period correct. Won't start, either.

yep I goofed. But it still LOOKS like a 1866, so I reject it.

I believe there is more at stake than just design when considering the BIG BOY. I was looking to get started in CAS and went out on my own to purchase a rifle. I saw the Henry and liked the feel of it.
I read the catalog and saw two big pages saying it was a great gun for CAS. I purchased the gun and took it home(got # 43).Imagine the let down I felt when I showed up at our local club for the first time and found out I had been decieved by Henry,s advertiseing. I Have joined SASS now and have to buy a new rifle and am stuck with a rifle that is very hard to sell. I am on disability because I have severe spinal cord injury and had to save for over a year to get this one. My point is that as far as I can tell SASS is about taking care of each other and being HONEST! we should not support a company that thinks it is OK to take advantage of new commers not familiar with all the rules and regs. yet.

Cant Dance #61061

Howdy Cant Dance,
First let me say if you showed up here in New Mexico to shoot you'd be welcome to shoot your rifle at our regular monthly CAS matches. Probably alot of folks would like to see and try it to. The glitch is when it's a SASS sanctioned event it's by the SASS rule book.

Like the expressioin says " I don't have a dog in this fight". But I have been involved in CAS and SASS since 1986 and have helped organize and put on some of the biggest shoots in Arizona in those days. Your rifle should be allowed in the modern category. There are so many fantasy arms now that did not exist then, that the point of excluding the Henry Big Boy because it's not a historically accurate arm/design is moot.

I shoot original 1st gen Colts and Winchesters. Just the way things worked out for me, they are old and clunky but they are mine. Recently I got a Uberti 73 because it was a 44spl.That's my exception.

You don't say where you are? Have you been to just one location? I'd wait till after SASS & the TG's meet again before you sell or trade off your Big Boy rifle.
Was it a rep from the Henry Co / through their outlet who sold it to you, or some other FFL dealer?

Howdy, and thanks for asking

I said no last year and I told my TG no this year. Same reason. The Henry company's advertising is full of deceptions and half truths. And I'm not talking about the half truths of pulling the wool over unsuspecting buyer's eyes by claiming it is already accepted. I'm talking about purposely setting up a marketing campaign that implies they are what they are not. Their advertising is full of veiled references to the original Henry rifle and it's inventor and they make every effort to imply that they are somehow related to the original manufacturers of the Henry Rifle. They have not changed a word of that in the last year. Rule #3 in Gene's Cowboy Code is 'A Cowboy always tells the truth'. Call me naive and old fashioned, but I believe that. That is part of the ideal that we profess to uphold in Cowboy Shooting. I will not do business with a company that has that view of business ethics, whether it's in the USA or on the moon. And I don't think they have anyplace in Cowboy Action Shooting either.

Just This Cowboy's Humble Opinion.

Thanks for your input Harve,
I live in Northern Colorado and just started shooting again. I wish I had gone out and met the guys before I made this purchase. I purchased it from a local dealer and do not believe in any way the salesman was trying to get over on me, as i stated I have #43 and that early in this contreversy none of us knew what was ahead of us concerning this rifle. After reading some of the other opinions posted ,is it possible Henry just screwed up and jumped the gun with this product. I do have to admit it has a fine feel to it and the action is as smooth as frogs hair.
I have read the rifle is clunky and cant agree.Maybe Henry should do something for the people that feel decieved.
Thanks agin,
Cant Dance

Tony Guns,SASS #53435
SASS Wire Vet
Member # 16520

Here's more:  posted October 13, 2004 08:42 AM                       
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Representatives from Henry Repeating Arms Company will attend the Thrid Annual Sass Convention in Decemember. We invite you to visit our booth. Henry Repeating Arms was the proud sponsor of all SASS Regional events in 2004. We also provided door prizes and literature for a large number of the club level events. For those who might be interested, we just began delivery of our Henry Big Boy 45 Colt. Should anyone wish to contact me, please do so by email at info@henryrepeating.com.

--------------------
Anthony Imperato, President Henry Repeating Arms

OK Cowboys,
As far as the contreversy about The deceptive advertiseing, I have decided to give Henry the benefit of the doubt. I can easilly believe after talking to SASS members at a shoot,and being told they wanted a bigger version of thier .22 lever gun. Henry was doing what they thought we wanted, I can not imagine they would have wanted this trouble as a new company. As far as my Big boy is concerned, I have e-mailed Henry to try and work things out.
I will let every one know how it goes. Would'nt any of us want a second chance if we screwed up?, I think it is the Christian thing to do for our fellow brother. If Henry does any-thing for me or not We need to try to support American Jobs, Not Italian and Chinese . If you are American Buy American.
Vote Bush
Cant dance

Told You I,d Let You Know,
I just got off the phone with Henry Rifle and was very satisfied after talking to the president of the company. Anthony was very concerned about my situation and left the decision up to me on what I want to do. Personaly, I am going to wait until after December to decide what to do. I hope the gun is made legal. I just want to be allowed to shoot my own game with the rifle of my choice.
Cant Dance

And Can't Dance there should be room in this sport for you to do just that.
 
If you can't find it, come shoot with me, and if you whip me with that Henery, maybe next time you will let me borrow it?  ;)

I think that perhaps we could meld both the Winchester lever action and features found on Colts and have them made here in America by someone like Panther.  Whille it doen't look exactly like any exact firearm it is a lever action, although the lever only moves 1/8".

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v56/cuttinge/WinColt/WinColt.jpg)

Sorry, folks, but we gotta draw the line somewhere.  I vote "no" on the BB.

Good thinkin', Willie. :D

NO!!!

1)    Its ugly
2)    It isn't a repo of anything, and certainly not pre 1900.
3)    The company has a bad attitude
4)    The Golden Boy I own is junk, has the worst trigger of any gun I've owned
5)    Did I mention that its ugly
6)    Poor design, particularly the loading arrangement, which is dangerous/stupid in centerfire
7)    And last but not least, its ugly and I don't want to have to look at them at matches


Thanks for asking

Deadeye

Quote from: Deadeye on October 19, 2004, 05:20:14 PM
NO!!!

1)    Its ugly  What's that got to do with anything? You can say alot of arms are ugly, to some people all guns are ugly.

2)    It isn't a repo of anything, and certainly not pre 1900.Since SASS allows so much exptions to their own rules since the 1980's. It used to be that any arm with coil springs action was in the modern category, Rugers were all modern and they made an exception with the Vaquero.The new Henry BB has a place in the modern category.

3)    The company has a bad attitude. You can communicate directly with the owner, Read back on this topic.

4)    The Golden Boy I own is junk, has the worst trigger of any gun I've owned,
Then send it back, fix-it yourself , sell it, give it away, or sell it.

5)    Did I mention that its ugly [/color]Dah, you said that.

6)    Poor design, particularly the loading arrangement, which is dangerous/stupid in centerfire, Basically the same as a Henry, so there is No difference.

7)    And last but not least, its ugly and I don't want to have to look at them at matches. Don't go then. Go to NCOW's shoots. SASS never was historically accurate.


Thanks for asking

Deadeye

your welcome, Harve Curry

I personally think all of the above can be said for the Ruger Blackhawk, but I don't have problems with you bringing one to a match........

And the full-auto version of the 1873 Winchester should be allowed as well, but only in the original 44 wcf chambering.

Yep,  make it legal.  Heck, the Vaqueros came around long after the Ubertis and Great Westerns had been on the market.  I had both of those back in the 70's which, I believe is before CAS/SASS.  So, if Vaqueros are allowed, along with other non-replica replicas (Cimaron Thunderer comes to mind), then why not the Henry.  My son has one, and it shoots wonderfully.  Smooth action, and good for huntin', too!

Ride Easy,
Smokey Jim

Quote from: Deadeye on October 19, 2004, 05:20:14 PM
NO!!!

1)    Its ugly
2)    It isn't a repo of anything, and certainly not pre 1900.
3)    The company has a bad attitude
4)    The Golden Boy I own is junk, has the worst trigger of any gun I've owned
5)    Did I mention that its ugly
6)    Poor design, particularly the loading arrangement, which is dangerous/stupid in centerfire
7)    And last but not least, its ugly and I don't want to have to look at them at matches

Other than that, It's a good-looking gun, huh? :D

For me it's simple.  The rifle doesn't meet the criteria spelled out in the rules.  In order to allow it, the rule has to be changed.  I don't think that the rule needs to be changed.

Doc

I could see this rifle being brought in under the "modern" class.. and I think as more affordable and reliable Colt clones and other period-correct pistols become available, we should take a look at moving the RV and all non-period calibers (like .38 Special and .357 Magnum) into just the modern, senior and junior categories.  Maybe start with Classic Cowboy, Duelist and Gunfighter.. make them more period correct first and see how that goes.

All Rugers are not the same class as a Colt's or S&W or anything but a modernized version with coil springs.

Rifles and handguns with coil spring actions should be in the modern category.

Short stroked lever actions didn't exist and should be in the modern all out fantasy gun category.

These were the rules when SASS 1st started and thats the way it should be.

How can you reason any other fair & "cowboy way" conclusion ?

Apparently, you don't care about the reasons.. You keep beating the same ol' drum.

You have not addressed the deceptive and manipulative marketing of Henry.  That's a big problem, especially if you want to quote the cowboy way.

Quote from: Evil Swede on October 20, 2004, 03:48:21 PM
I could see this rifle being brought in under the "modern" class.. and I think as more affordable and reliable Colt clones and other period-correct pistols become available, we should take a look at moving the RV and all non-period calibers (like .38 Special and .357 Magnum) into just the modern, senior and junior categories. Maybe start with Classic Cowboy, Duelist and Gunfighter.. make them more period correct first and see how that goes.

It would make sense to re-align the categories with the current offerings of guns, cartridges and modificatons.  This would be a major undertaking and I sure don't see that happening anytime soon.  I have made an observation and suggestion.. I'll see if I can find the post and bring it back up.

Here it is:

Quote
There's a fair amount of discussion, here and elsewhere about the Modern category and what to do with it.  Here's my suggestion, but it's a pretty significant revamp of the category structure of SASS.

First off, I think there is room for everyone's cowboy shooting style.  Still, they seem to divide along two lines, one Modern and one Traditional. 
Modern would hold adjustable sights, modified guns, light loads and minimal dress.  It would be the default/catch-all category for new shooters.
Traditional would be for traditional BP level loads, stock guns and upgraded dress.
I'd say that 97s could be in both, Blackpowder and smokeless can be in both and two handed shooting can be in both, but not off hand thumbing.

My theory is based on a 4 phase spectrum pairing the two dominant issues in CAS, Shooting and Costuming.  If you will:
Quadrant one is your fast competitive shooter who just happens to be shooting cowboy guns.  He would be just as happy shooting another discipline.  This shooter wears the very minimum of clothes needed to qualify for the match.  His ability to transform steel into a rapid-fire machinery is his passion.

Quadrant two is your competitive shooter, but committed to CAS.  He will slick his guns and lighten his loads.  He wears a Gus rather than a Cattleman's crease on his hat.  He loves the game but it's the shooting more than the history. 

Quadrant three is the Tom Selleck wannabee.  He dresses to the best of his ability and shoots the loads like they did back in the old days.  His guns may have a little stoning or a set of springs.  He cares about his match placement, but not at the cost of leaving the history.

Quadrant four are re-enactors who shoot cause it gives them an excuse to wear the clothes.  He likes to shoot but history, authenticity and heritage are his watchwords.  Blackpowder is the only way for this shooter.  He does the little things and enjoys transporting himself back in time.

It is my observation that most folks are in Q2 and Q3.  Most folks in Q2 want to compare themselves with the folks in Q1 and most folks in Q3 would rather not be compared to folks in Q1 and to a degree Q2.  Q4 folks want more dressing up and look at Q2 as a minimum and Q3 as acceptable costuming. 

I'm sure there is a lot I'm missing and I hope everyone reads this with a clear eye.  I am not judging any position nor am I trying to separate folks, I am relating my observation just think these are the fracture lines that are developing.

Quote

Well Big Hext Finnigan I see you are behind the Cross Bar Hotel ;D , and I will consistently and persistantly say that the Henry Big Boy has a place in a modern category. Or other arms should be out as well. Any fair & reasonable conclusion should come to that same idea.

Ahh the "Cowboy Way", and also "2 wrongs don't make a right" is an older and wiser sayin.

Advertising and issues of lots of folks staying employed MAKIN GUNS ( and in Brooklyn, NY of all places, we need more of that politically),  is more important to me then someones thin skin about some individuals bad judgement when they wrote up an ad. 

"Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining" is an even better saying..
If you want to call Henry's advertisements bad judgements.. gimme your number and address, I got some bridges and timeshares to sell ya.

 
If it's rainin or peeing in Texas I'm sure you'd be the one to know Big Hex, and we'll know who to ask about Texas weather.

Now that we all know how you really feel ::)

             It's real simple and comes down to one question:

How can so many other modern and altered rifles and handguns be allowed by SASS & the TG's and not allow the Henry BB in the modern category?

That's easy since we are speaking in "real simple" terms here. Other manufactures chose to follow the existing SASS rules or were grandfathered in because a large number of shooters were already using them in SASS. Other manufactures have went through the proper channels and appoval process while Henry did not. When the Omni Potent was not approved USFA did not engage in misleading advertising to dupe new shooters into believing it was a SASS legal firearm. And finally to the average eye even a Ruger Vaquero can pass the ten foot rule, the Henry BB has as much hope of passing as a fence post.

While I too believe in supporting American manufactures as much as possible, a lie is still a lie whether spoken in English, Italian, or Chinese. It is unfortunate that an American company must be the one taught this lesson, but an example must be made in this case.

The SASS rules in the late 1980's did not allow the Ruger except in the modern category, coil spring actions were specifically spelled out- modern category. Shooters didn't have an adundance of Vaqueros until much later in the 1990's and the rule was changed to accomodate the Ruger action, not the other way around.

I saw the Henry ad and I don't like it, it was pretty bold lie the way it was printed up.

What I am saying is and will stick with is, there are so many exceptions now that the point of keeping historically correct arms is gone. Only in a few select categories can you do that.

As far as keeping gun making jobs in the USA and punishing Henry for a chicken$h!! ad by banning the rifle, that is like throwing the baby out the bath water.

I would think that we would much rather have some of our fellow Americans working at a arms factory in Brooklyn, and the company have the chance to grow and produce better guns down the road that suit you.

I will still say and hold to it that it is of 1st importance to support American arms makers, because we all need to stand together for the long haul. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Obviuosly somebody is listening because the poll has gone from 20% for, to 35% for Henry.

SASS changed that rule to allow a more affordable, more reliable, and more available pistol to be used by a wider variety of shooters. The RV still strongly resembles the Colt design and easily passes the ten foot rule (A rule you seem to have ignored).   This in turn helped bring more members into SASS. I seem to remember seeing a survey in the Chronicle that Rugers are still the most used pistol in CAS. So it would seem that the TG's made a good decision.

The Henry BB is not more affordable than some of the choices we currently have. The question of reliability and availability will only be answered with time if the BB survives. Even most shooters that have responded in favor of the BB have indicated they wouldn't be caught dead at a match with one, so it seems it would not be used by a wide variety of shooters. And to say the BB strongly resembles any pre-1899 design would be like putting whipped cream on bull$hi!. So trying to compare Henry to Ruger is flat wrong.

To insinuate that if we do not support Henry on this model they will close up shop is well.......creative at best. Even if (God forbid) this did happen, the Henry workers would only have the ignorance and arrogance of the Henry management to blame.

If Henry would redesign this ugly excuse for a rifle and follow the same approval guidelines that other manufacturers seem to be able to do, I would be more than happy to support them. But until then I do not support anyone that tries to sneak something this wrong in the backdoor no matter where it is made.

I do think you have your heart in the right place with your arguement, but you have thrown your logic out with that bath water you seem to be so fond of. But at least we do agree that Henry's advertising of the BB was deceptive to put it mildly.

By the way Pard, I hate to tell you but 20% or 30% a 2 to 1 majority in a poll is still a 2 to 1 majority.   

Well this has been hashed out till there is no more hash left and some will never go for it and others will.

As far as a pre 1899 design it's a straight stocked (no pistol grips like Marlin) lever action rifle with buckhorn sights.

Maybe if it had a loading gate or they left the forearm off or the action was blue it might of made a differance to some of you but even at 100 feet or 10 inches it's just as Cowboy as a Ruger New Model BlackHawk, any stainless or plastic gripped gun out there.

I don't own one but I wish I did, I don't think it's ugly at all, just like a little pug puppy I used to have.  If I did own one I would be shooting it at my monthly matches and no one would care.

Like I started off saying, Some will and Some will never like it.  Leave it at that.........The rest of this is just pissing in the wind.........

This rifle does not meet SASS standards.  If we allow this one then how can we draw the line when the $5000 WhizBanger comes out that is really a Simi auto with a lever and a hammer but it almost looks like a "Henry"?  Here is a good place to draw the line.

This "Henry" is not going to be competitive and maybe the day won't come when you need to trade in your truck for a down payment on a rifle to be competitive.

Good Luck from Rattlesnake Gulch
Skookum Chuck

Dear Friends?
First off, why and Who can say this is an unsafe design, I have been working on fire arms for @ 20 years and find the henry to be of very fine design. Please explain if you are able, I am wondering what your comments are based on.
And as far as saying the gun is ugly , I happen to like the looks of it and bought one.
Using remington brass and 22.3 gr. os winchester 296 and a federal mag primer, I got a 2" group at 100 yrds. (lets see any Italian, spagetti western , non american piece a horse hooey do that.)
Why is it that people shooting Marlin 336 rifles with short action jobs,and a new fancy cowboy sounding model name think they are shooting any thing remotely old fashion.
Was the 357 designed in the 50,s and the 44 mag in the 60,s.?(sorry let me clerify 1950 and 1960.)
OOPS ,I own a real colt but choose to shoot my RV's cause I like the big boat anchor feel of them and they shoot great.
I think we all like to bend the rules to help our own cause and, try to keep everyone else towing the line. (Just human nature)
Thanks for asking NOT!
Cante dance