Cartridge loops - a How-to

[Nolan Sackett]

Since there have been some questions regarding this subject here goes with a tip of the hat to FO Baird -






Some things of note:
1) DO NOT over dampen the leather - leather swells when wet and will shrink in thickness when dry leaving your loops loose.
2) I use the second "machine" method even when hand sewing as it's faster and I generally use 3/4 oz leather for hand gun cartridge loops and depending on the style, 4/5 oz for shotgun loops
3) The most widely used loop width for handgun cartridges on 19th century cartridge belts was by far 1". 3/4" was sometimes used, but mainly on the late 1880-90 wide money belts with two rows of loops.
4) For shotgun loops 1" or 1.25" works good.

There are a few other period "tricks/methods" for sewing loops, but this should answer "how-to" when you don't have measurements. This method also takes into consideration that leather is NEVER consistently thick so I ALWAYS double check measurements with each new cartridge loop strip even when cut from the same hide.
Actually I sew loops seldom - full woven or semi-woven are my preferred choices - they are not only PC and faster to make, but also stronger - that sew line can/will cause a zipper effect - I've repaired MANY more sewn loops in the last 40+ years than either of the woven styles.

Hope this helps and as always other mileage WILL vary.............

[Tommy tornado]

Thanks Mr. Sackett for posting this information.  I am planning on buying your DVD in June  .

[Triggersmith]

Thank you Mr Sackett.  I just bought your Holster DVD.
Triggersmith

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Great thread, Nolan, Thanks for posting this information.

[Reverend Bob]

Do some of you fellows have a recipe for 20 Gauge Shotgun Loops? 
It's been quite a while since I have made a belt with 20 Gauge Loops.  I'm looking for the recipe for sewn loops with 4/5oz. leather. 
Thanks For Your Help.....

Reverend Bob
reverendbob@truevine.net

[Flinch Morningwood]

I did something like this a while ago when I needed to make loops for a 16 ga. 

What I ended up doing was taking another pattern for loops and, for the known pattern, wrote down the diameter of the case the loop pattern was for(call that A), the space between sew marks on the belt (B) and the length of the loop pattern (C).  I used a pattern I had for 45 LC loops as a guide.

       The ratio for the sew marks = B divided by A (For an example, say this was equal to 2.1)
       The ratio for the loop legnth = C divided by A  (example 3.4)


Find the Diameter (or A) for your 20 ga shells and multiply it by each ratio to the spacing and loop legnth. 

In the example, if your A for 16 ga was .61 inches then your sew spacing would be 1.28" and your loop length would be 2.07"...your actual number will obviously be different.

This got me pretty close and then I dampened them and put a 16 ga shell in them to dry.  I first wrapped the shell with 3 wraps of masking tape to ensure the loops would dry big enough to easily extract the shell.

Good luck.

[Brazos Jack]

Howdy,

I would like to share a method of making a re-usable Layout Template for Bullet and Shell Loops. Trust me, this works!

Have fun.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Good information, BJ. sometimes simple is great. Thanks for the information.

[Brazos Jack]

Simplicity is always the best way to go. When I was making the buckskin wares I shot from the hip and it was hit or miss about half the time. Then, thanks to a tantrum from my 2 year old daughter who scattered a bunch of pre-punched and unmatched pieces all over the room, I decided to make standardized templates. I spent a few years developing pattern making skills to cut the construction time in half and allowed my to make the exact same thing over and over again.
These skills came in handy when I made my second holster and accidently disovered a way to make a well fitting holster WITHOUT the pistol. Over the past 8 years this has been refined to the four sizes of holsters that accomodate the single action pistols used in CAS - No wet molding required. Not to mention the Shell and Bullet Slides used in the sport. My goal, and pleasure, is to share as much information as I can with folks to help make their lives easier without compromising quality.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Here are some dimensions posted by Outrider on the "show us yer stuff" thread that can add to this one.

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Title: Re: Leathersmiths.....show us yer stuff!!!
Post by: outrider on October 07, 2007, 09:31:58 AM
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Marshall:

The stitch spacing is as follows:

20 gauge single loop...1 3/4" on the loop and 7/8" on the slide
20 gauge double loop..2 3/8" on the loop and 1 3/4" on the slide (as shown in picture)
12 gauge sinlge loop....2 1/8" on the loop and 1" on the slide (as shown in picutre)
12 gauge double loop..2 7/8" on the loop and 1 7/8" on the slide

This should work for you
Outrider

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Title: Re: Leathersmiths.....show us yer stuff!!!
Post by: outrider on October 13, 2007, 07:16:57 AM
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Quote from: Travis Morgan on October 08, 2007, 06:21:51 PM

What about for .357 and .45? Thanks in advance.

Travis sorry for the delay

.45 Colt....1 3/8" on the loop and 5/8" on the belt
.38/.357..1 1/8" on the loop and 9/16" on the belt
.32 cal. ..1" on the loop and 1/2" on the belt
.500 S&W mag...1 1/2" on the loop and 5/8" on the belt

105mm hozitzer....heheheh your on your own

[cazio]

Well I'm getting ready to stitch my cartridge loops and was wondering how you folks do them? I am hand stitching about 25 to 30 loops and wasn't exactly sure where to begin. I've read the posts in the FAQ on the cartridge loops but still am not fully understanding, I don't see a way to use a two needle stitch easily to achieve the look that is shown in the FAQ post. If I go up and then diagonally across and up and so on I'm missing the trick of getting both threads back underneath to begin the next loop. If I use two needles how do you tie off the thread at the end of each side of a loop? There are only three or four stitches per loop, I was going to use waxed thread as I always do but now I'm thinking of using a stitching awl but I still would like to know how I should finish the stitch at the end of each loop. I plan on lining the belt so that the stitches won't be seen. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Robert

[Dalton Masterson]

I usually sew my loops separately, although it wastes a little bit of thread with the tails leftover from 25 loops or so.

Currently I am trying to sew one with continuous thread, and had to have 1 hole above and below the loop material to get it to work. It worked well, but seems to take much longer to sew than doing one loop at a time. 

DM

[Hank Rugerman]

I prefer to sew each loop individually......just my .02

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I stitch mine separately, too. I start in a couple stitches from the top and work to the edge then back down all the way and back up finishing a couple stitches from the bottom. That doubles the stitching at the ends and helps prevent un-raveling. I tie it with a buried knot on the last stitch then run the outer needle back through the next hole and trim the ends.

[cazio]

Thanks guys, I was hoping it was something like you've all mentioned. Once I finish it I'll get some pictures up.

Robert

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Marshal Will;  So that's how you do it.  I have avoided the continuous multi loop system as I thought having the cross-over exposed to wear was a weak point.  I stitch each loop separately, but have left the knot in a raggle-tail mess.  

What do you do. Tie a square (reef) knot and pull it into the stitch hole? Or just an overhand knot?

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pards,
I stitch each loop inidividually, a do the lockstitch, rather than double needle.  There are a couple of reasons for doing it this way, which I'll get to in a moment.  I lay out the location of the stitch lines on the belt using a pattern I developed long ago, depending on the cartridge. One hole above where the cartridge loop will lie, and one below, so the stitches will keep the top and bottom of the loop held down to the belt body.  Forty-four and forty-five caliber require 5/8" between the stitch lines for each loop.  Others vary.  The distance between stitching lines on the loop piece varies somewhat depending on the thickness of the loop material (4-5 oz, but this can vary between .072-.078" thick, ideally).  I lay these out with a dividers, marking the line where the stitching will go.  I use a special tool, I made (#17 steel nails with the heads cut off, and pushed into holes drilled in a small steel block at intervals about 7-1/2 stitches per inch) to mark where the needle will penetrate.  I start on the SECOND hole mark from the top, stitch down to the bottom, and then go back up to the top of the loop strip, and then back down several stitches, so the thread overlaps.  I run the loose end through the loop formed in the thread by the Speedi-stitcher TWICE on the last stitch, and then pull them down into the leather.  

Now, since I do this for a living, I cheat...!  I use a Juki sewing machine!  Saves me about half the time per cartridge loop.  And time is money.  But before I got the machine, I did stitch by hand this way.    

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

 Howdy All

        I use the method WC taught me, for doing bullet loops, which is continuous, I use the saddle stitch for this, if I do a lined belt , all the stitches are cemented in when you put in your liner, when I do this type of loop sewing I just cross over to the next loop without sewing in between, and pull my thread taunt, but don't over tighten, and start on the next loop, when I get to the end of my thread , I'll back stitch two or three stitch holes , cut the thread off and then start a length of thread for next batch of loops, it goes quick this way and everything is tight, if I stitch an unlined belt with loops, I will sew in the cross over from one loop to the other, and then tap down the stitching as best I can into the leather,


                                                tEN wOLVES   

[Big Bear Johnson]

I've always done mine continuous.
Start with a stitch below the leather used for the cartridge then next stitches go through the belt and the cartridge leather (CL).
Then it ends above the CL in a column. I then punch two diagonals in the gunbelt and use those to stitch my way back tot he bottom to start the next loop. Continue in this NNNNNNN pattern to the end. It's held my cartridges on my belt for 12 years so far without issues. I don't glue anything but I guess you could.

[cazio]

I thought I had it figured, I'm gonna have to practice some stitches tonight. Do the majority of you recommend a stitch above and below the strap to secure the loops or just stitch the strap only.
Thanks again

Robert