Muzzle Loading Shotgun for CAS?

[TIZWIN]

Bear with the ignorance of the new guy--does anyone use a front stuffing scattergun for this game?  Or do the stages generally preclude such a slow loading weapon?

[hellgate]

Most stages have 4-6 shotgun rounds required. Besides holding up the posse with 4 reloads there is the safety factor whereby, in a hurry to load ASAP the wads may not get fully seated or an ember down in the barrel touching off the next powder charge. It's one thing to shoot the ML SXS while waiting your turn on the trap or skeet line and trying to play Beat the Clock and another hurriedly loading at breakneck speed when being timed.

I HAVE used my ML SXS in CAS matches but I did so by conspiring with another stage writer and we each wrote stages where only two shots were required for the stage. That way we could use them in a couple of stages. We staged the guns as usual and then "loaded" them by capping the nipples.

Another option is to just shoot the first two shotgun targets and take the rest as misses.

If you like the classic look of the BP shotguns you could get a hammered double and shoot BP  in it. I have a repro Colt 1878 hammered double that roars nicely with my BP shotshells. Other folks use originals. I also use an IGA Coach Gun.

[Dick Dastardly]

It's a game.  Repeaters and SxS breach loaders are the norm.  Front stuffers, although great to hunt with, are just too slow for a SASS match.  So, my answer would be, "here, use mine till you get one you like".  Safety is another question.  Front stuffers need a LOT of practice to load fast, and even then, they can't compete with breach loading guns.

Bring yer pard to the match, help him with getting his hands on a suitable scattergun, even if you have to share yours.  Soon enuf, he'll find one of his own.

Do this though.  Keep him on the Darkside.  We are a friendly bunch.

DD-DLoS

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

As you'all have noticed, i love to wander off the track!

Does anyone have any experience, tips, or sources, regarding paper cartridges for SHOT in muzzle loaders.  Roundball is easy, but wads & cards?

PS;  I'll bet Lars answers first!

[Cuts Crooked]

Sir Charles,

Try that questoin here: http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewforum.php?f=39

[Grizzle Bear]

I would like to note that NCOWS has a shooting class called "Pistoleer", where the shooter uses two percussion revolvers, a repeating rifle, and a cartridge or muzzleloading shotgun.  The shotgun is limited to two shots for Pistoleer competitors.  All firearms will be loaded with black powder only.

If you are just going for style, in a SASS match you can just shoot the first two shotgun targets, and take misses on any others.

Grizzle Bear

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I tried some I made up from scratch.  They are feasible.  Now I'l have to work on durability, safety and practicality.

MANUFACTURE  Mark I
I wrapped a 3 X 4.5 in piece of hi-quality brown paper around a SANFORD flip chart marker, that had just the right diameter, and taper.  I used glue stick during this process.  Orient the grain of the paper across the tube.

Split a cushion wad (mine were conditioned BLUE & GRAY wads - no longer in business)  Splitting is optional.  Squish it to a slightly smaller diameter and push it into the larger end of the tube far enough to allow your shot load and some left to fold over and glue.  I clipped the end about 3/8 down six times to make petals to fold over and glue.  I then glued an over-shot wad over the end.  I let the glue dry for a bit.

Grease the paper tube.  I found it easier to do it at this stage as it was stiffened by the wads & shot.  I used BORE-BUTTER from a squeeze tube, but it was a bit soft.  I'll have to try something else next time.  I let it sit overnight at this stage.

Pour your powder in the open end.  You will have about 2 inches of empty paper tube above the powder.  Flatten the empty part and fold the sides in to a bit less than the diameter of your emerging cartridge, and then fold it over alongside the body of the cartridge.  I held it with a "twist-tie".  Not very historical or practical, only a temporary expedient.  I placed them in a range pickup cartridge box (Norinco - .223).  In service, a leather cartidge box with a block with drilled holes for the cartidges would be proper.

SHOOTING
I assumed the cartidges would be used for follow-up shots so both barrels were loaded and fired, normally.  Now I loaded with my cartridges.  First tear off the fold of paper with your teeth to open the powder end, and pour the powder in the barrel.  Place the remainder of the cartridge in the barrel.  Now the reason for squishing the wads becomes apparent, so the cartridge slips easily into the barrel, to catch on the over-shot card glued on the end.  Ram & tamp.  Cap & ready to fire.

I only fired the right barrel.  I wanted to see if the other cartridge would creep forward when the othe barrel was fired.  It did NOT, even after four shots.  I did not notice any paper residue left in the barrels.

Now, the importance of THE NUT THAT HOLDS THE BUTT shows itself. On reloading the right barrel, I forgot that resting the top of the gun against the top of the bench turned the gun around!  Normally I hold the gun between my knees at this point, so the error SHOULD NOT be repeated.  I realized this after I poured powder over the loaded charge, with the remainder sitting in the muzzle.  The cartridge was easy to pick out, and up-ending the gun left me with a handful of powder, and one lost cartridge.  (I did salvage it for testing purposes by putting the powder in the correct barrel and completed the reload. It fired properly!)

I was interupted in my testing with a broken nippel!  MURPHY strikes! - TWICE!  I had to switch the good one to the other barrel to complete the test!

I was worried about the shot being glued up in a tube and acting like a slug - Did not happen!  The patterns and force of the shot seem to be the same as the scratch loaded shot.  I did not chronograph this test.

This process requires more developement, and a safety review.  I do not suggest that muzzleloading shotguns be used in CAS, except as approved in their class, and not yet with these cartridges.  On the range, with no time pressures, this process needs practise & experience.  Done ON THE CLOCK adds the stress factor, and errors can happen.  Remember, THE NUT THAT HOLDS THE BUTT!  I might try it for quick reloads while hunting.

Good Shooting!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

 I tried two new x-spear-i-mints.

Cartridge, Shot, ML, 12 ga. Mark I*

Same as the mark I in my prior post, except that ;
-  Made the tube on a tapered white board marker
-  Squished a cushion wad so it would push down about 1 1/4 inch
-  added a measure of shot
-  fitted an overshot card over the shot
-`slit the remaining paper into six petals, fold and glue  (Or glue & fold?)
-  Lube the paper tube.  This time I tried Lyman BP Gold
-  Measure in the powder into the other end, fold.`

The difference was putting the overshot card inside the paper tube.  I thought it would not be as likely to fall off.  The trick is to get the tube just right.  If it is too big around it won't slip in properly.  It HAS to slip in freely, up to the overshot card, but not too thin or the overshot wad won't fit right.  Again no problems, and it didn't slip forward when the other barrel was fired repeatedly.

Cartridge, Ball, ML 12 ga. Mark II

I got this idea from an article in The RIFLEMAN, about the CSA powder and ammunition article (last year, I think).  The problem is that a paper wrapped ball is not likely to fit well enough for accuracy.  The CSA used English cartridges that were different than the wrapped paper tube that I described above.  It was a cardboard tube, with the bullet at one end, pointed towards the middle.  The powder was on top, and sealed.  to use, open the powder end, and pour.  Then place the bullet end over the muzzle, and ram it down through the cartridge.  Discard the cartridge, cap, level, and fire.

For my tube I used 12 ga. cartridge bodies, with the head and crimp cut off.  Use paper, or the plastic shells made from tubing.  (A-A's won't work, or any moulded shell like it).

-  Ram a ball with a lubed patch down through the tube.
-  Ram an overshot card, or one punched from paper milk carton, on top to keep the powder from the patch lube.
-  Measure in the powder.
-  Finally an overshot card to seal the top.  I ran a piece of string under this card so it can be lifted out to free the powder.

To use;  Lift out the top overshot (over powder?) wad, and dump the powder in the barrel.  Place the tube over the muzzle and ram the patched ball through it, drive home and tamp.  Cap, level, aim, and fire.

This one is really simple and easy to use.  It doesn't seem to work with shot, as the shot column seems to press outward, making it impossible to ram, but for ball or minie bullet it's great.  I tried both paper shot shell bodies, and plastic.  Paper for smoothbore and tradegun matches, and plastic for game, and practise.

For a 12 ga., or any standard bore, use existing shotshell bodies.  For ML Rifles?  I just measured a piece of copper plumbing, and it came out to about .54.  Maybe that will do for my .54 Mortimer Flinter?   I'll have to figure out how to make durable tubes for other calibres.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I'm bumping this. Some similar topics are showing up in recent discussions.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Bear with the ignorance of the new guy--does anyone use a front stuffing scattergun for this game?  Or do the stages generally preclude such a slow loading weapon?

Howdy

Here are the SASS rules regarding Main Match shotguns.


SHOTGUN REQUIREMENTS

Any side-by-side or single shot shotgun typical of the period from approximately 1860
until 1899 with or without external hammers, having single or double triggers is allowed.
Automatic ejectors are allowed on single shot break action, lever and pump action shotguns
ONLY. Side-by-side shotguns may not use automatic ejectors. Lever action, tubular feed,
exposed hammer shotguns of the period are allowed, whether original or replicas. The only
slide action shotgun allowed is the Model 1897 Winchester shotgun, whether original or
replica. Certain shooting categories require a specific type of shotgun and ammunition to be
used. Military configurations are not allowed (i.e., trench guns). Please see the shooting
categories for further information.

SHOTGUN GAUGES

• Side-by-side, single shot, and lever action shotguns must be centerfire of at least 20 gauge
and no larger the 10 gauge.

• Slide action shotguns must be centerfire of at least 16 gauge and no larger than 12 gauge.

• Side-by-side, single shot, and lever action centerfire shotguns in .410 gauge are allowed
within the Buckaroo Category only.

The fact that all shotguns must be centerfire pretty much means that percussion is not allowed.

[Cherokee Bodie]

Most stages have 4-6 shotgun rounds required. Besides holding up the posse with 4 reloads there is the safety factor whereby, in a hurry to load ASAP the wads may not get fully seated or an ember down in the barrel touching off the next powder charge. It's one thing to shoot the ML SXS while waiting your turn on the trap or skeet line and trying to play Beat the Clock and another hurriedly loading at breakneck speed when being timed.

I HAVE used my ML SXS in CAS matches but I did so by conspiring with another stage writer and we each wrote stages where only two shots were required for the stage. That way we could use them in a couple of stages. We staged the guns as usual and then "loaded" them by capping the nipples.

Another option is to just shoot the first two shotgun targets and take the rest as misses.

If you like the classic look of the BP shotguns you could get a hammered double and shoot BP  in it. I have a repro Colt 1878 hammered double that roars nicely with my BP shotshells. Other folks use originals. I also use an IGA Coach Gun.

I do like the classic look and so I ordered a 10 gage percussion SXS from Pedersoli and planned on useing it in NCOWS. I like your idea of either taking the misses or rewriting the stages for a SASS shoot,  and I think I will work on those ideas here at my home club. Hey anyway, if you were use two shotguns at a match , what's one more gun to clean....By the way my first NCOWS shoot will be in South Carolina nx month and my first all percussion except for a Henry rifle. What would you all recommend for accessorys to load shotgun. Seperate powder and shot bags or dual pouch.? Anything else I would have to have?
By the way, ordered from Dixie and got delivery in just a few days. excellent service.

[Major 2]

I support ML SXS as a Main match gun,  Our NCOWS Posse ( Cherokee Bodie & myself etal)
We will accomadate  

Bill ..that is one beautifffffffffffful shotgun I look at the photo's last night !

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Percussion shotties were common for a very long time after cartridge guns were available.  The NWMP had some on the March West, and they were in use well into the 80,s  (EIGHTEEN 80,s that is!)

Peace officers and ranch owners probably kept up with the most effective guns available, but farmers, and townies who did a bit of casual hunting, could do with the old front-stuffers.

[Major 2]

Howdy

Here are the SASS rules regarding Main Match shotguns.


SHOTGUN REQUIREMENTS

Any side-by-side or single shot shotgun typical of the period from approximately 1860
until 1899 with or without external hammers, having single or double triggers is allowed.
Automatic ejectors are allowed on single shot break action, lever and pump action shotguns
ONLY. Side-by-side shotguns may not use automatic ejectors. Lever action, tubular feed,
exposed hammer shotguns of the period are allowed, whether original or replicas. The only
slide action shotgun allowed is the Model 1897 Winchester shotgun, whether original or
replica. Certain shooting categories require a specific type of shotgun and ammunition to be
used. Military configurations are not allowed (i.e., trench guns). Please see the shooting
categories for further information.

SHOTGUN GAUGES

• Side-by-side, single shot, and lever action shotguns must be centerfire of at least 20 gauge
and no larger the 10 gauge.

• Slide action shotguns must be centerfire of at least 16 gauge and no larger than 12 gauge.

• Side-by-side, single shot, and lever action centerfire shotguns in .410 gauge are allowed
within the Buckaroo Category only.

The fact that all shotguns must be centerfire pretty much means that percussion is not allowed.

Very true ...for SASS...

[Paladin UK]

JMOHO...

I think the SASS have got it wrong on some things

With one banner they waive... `gotta be period correct`

With another banner they waive... `if it suits period correct`

If a pard wanted ta use a muzzle stuffer scattergun at one of our shoots I am purty sure we let him blast away, obviously he would not be able to reload iffn the stage called for more than 2 rds but apart from that...`Just ENJOY!!`

Paladin (What lurvs ta shoot ....ANYTHING!! ) UK

[Slowhand Bob]

I have never owned a ML double shotgun BUT it does seem that I remember reading a caution concerning them.  These were hunting stories and the authors would mention a need to re-ram the second barl after firing the first, in order to prevent a loose charge from ringing the barl.  Is it perhaps common for the first discharge to loosen the second load??

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I have never owned a ML double shotgun BUT it does seem that I remember reading a caution concerning them.  These were hunting stories and the authors would mention a need to re-ram the second barl after firing the first, in order to prevent a loose charge from ringing the barl. Is it perhaps common for the first discharge to loosen the second load?

For Slowhand Bob;  Fast answer - Yes

It can also loosen a hand-loaded shotgun shell if not crimped well or, when using brass shotshell that doesn't often (if ever) get crimped, and the over-shot wad is too small and/or not "sealed or glued right" if using waterglass, (sodium silicate) or a glue of sorts.

Many beginner handloaders have shot their first shell then watched in amazement as the last of the shot from the NEXT round dribbles out the front of the left (most often) still loaded barl.  Or barl, as you like to spell it ...

[Cliff Fendley]

Bear with the ignorance of the new guy--does anyone use a front stuffing scattergun for this game?  Or do the stages generally preclude such a slow loading weapon?

Yes in NCOWS. Pistoleer is limited to two shotgun shots per stage so you can use the front stuffers competitively. Also must use percussion pistols.

[Pettifogger]

Yes in NCOWS. Pistoleer is limited to two shotgun shots per stage so you can use the front stuffers competitively. Also must use percussion pistols.

Hopefully, you all have noticed the post is seven years old.  Let it die a peaceful death.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I have never owned a ML double shotgun BUT it does seem that I remember reading a caution concerning them.  These were hunting stories and the authors would mention a need to re-ram the second barl after firing the first, in order to prevent a loose charge from ringing the barl.  Is it perhaps common for the first discharge to loosen the second load??

Never go to a match, or out hunting, without checking your components and loading techniques.  In a post above I described how I make paper shot, or ball, cartridges.  Before I went public with my ideas I tested for the potential problem you mentioned.

Load both barrels with your selected load.  Mark your loading rod pushed down on a properly tamped load.  Fire away with one barrel (the same barrel!) several times. Check patterns, pot clays or whatever.  Check the loaded barrel after EACH shot to see if the load has crept forward. If it hasn't, you're goodtago. If it has, then figure out how to tighten up the load, like with a harder or larger over-shot card.

Having said that, I'd likely check the unfired load at any reasonable opportunity.  At the same time, you are verifying that you are loading the fired barrel, and not putting a second load on top another.  During matches, I'd think that loading table officers and R.O.s should be aware of the status of both barrels on a percussin' shottie.