Spencer Cartridge Box Photos & Information

[Snapshot]

I do some leather woork, and I plan on making replica Cartridge boxes for the new 56-50 Spencer Rifle / Carabine.
So the question is: Does any of you have drawings or descriptions on how they where made out originaly???
Pictures of original Cartridge boxes would help a lot to.! 

[Harve Curry]

They were called " Blakeslee " , not sure if I got the spelling right. There was more then one version. The Blakeslee was a octagon that held the reloading tubes of 7 rounds each.

[Ed Clintwood]

The Blakeslee Box came in a couple of sizes, one held 6 tubes, another held 10.  You can find out more about them in Marcot's book on the Spencer (Spencer Repeating Firearms), I got mine from Amazon and it's a great read.

[St. George]

The Blakeslee Cartridge Box was designed by Colonel Erastus Blakeslee - of the First Connecticut Voluntary Cavalry.

It was registered under U.S. Patent #45,469 on December 20, 1864.

Ordnance purchased 33,000 cartridge boxes - with the intention of 32,000 going to the Cavalry - 1,000 to the Infantry - though actual 'issue' numbers aren't readily available.

Constructed with a drilled wooden block, tinned tubes, covered in heavy bridle leather and carried by a sling - they were heavy and saw relatively little service.

If you go to your search engine - you should be able to find out more about the 'schematics' and makers of the originals.

Good Luck.

Scouts Out!

[Two Flints]

From Two Flints:

Photo of Reproduction Blakeslee:



Photos of Original Blakeslee:





Photos of a second Original Blakeslee:

[Two Flints]

The following comments describing the various methods of carrying ammo are attributed to Trailrider, SSS member # 47,  and are used here with his permission.   Two Flints 

"Prior to about 1874, the cavalry was armed with a mixed bag of both pistols and carbines. The three primary pistols were the M1860 Colt's Army cal. .44, and the Remington New Model Army revolver, which used pre-packaged paper cartridges and loose percussion caps. The third pistol, issued on a trial basis in the early 1870's was the Smith & Wesson America, which, of course, fired .44 cal. metallic cartridges.

Aside from the loads carried in the pistol proper, spare 6-round packets of paper cartridge and "conical ball" were carried in the Civil War-issue Pistol Cap & Cartridge Pouches. These were issued from stores, and carried on the saber or waist belt. They have the single-piece flap which buttons over a stud finial on the bottom of the pouch (see my website or catalog). As issued, the pouches have a short inner flap and are lined on inside of the back with sheep's wool to keep the caps or the cartridges from flopping around. These have room for about one packet's worth, or six rounds, though you might be able to squeeze a few more in. Haven't tried it, but maybe you could get 10-12 rounds in there.

Following the CW, these pouches were used as-is as long as the cap and ball revolvers were in use. Standard issue was one per trooper, but I'd bet they'd scrounge a few of them for actual campaign use.

Following the issue of the Colt's "New model strap pistol", aka, the Colt's Single Action Army, in .45 Colt, the ".45 Colt's Revolver" cartridges were issued generally 24 rds to each trooper for the field. However, again, the cap and pistol cartridge pouches were used to carry "ready loads" on the trooper's person. The rest were carried in the saddlebags. The pouches had their wool liners and the little loop for the cone pick removed, and sometimes the inner flap was also removed. The rounds were carried one of two ways, depending on the configuration of the pouch. One was just to carry them loose. Of course, they rattled around unless jammed full in the pouch. The second type used a wooden block drilled with 6-holes to carry cartridges. The problem I find with these (aside from being SASS-unacceptable) is the rounds rattle in the holes, since the holes have to be loose enough to easily remove the rounds. Neither, method is entirely satisfactory, and I believe the wood blocks were used primarily in garrison.

Carbine ammunition was carried in a variety of ways. For those units armed with Spencer Repeating Rifles (or carbines), there were two possibilities: The first, which would seem the most practicable, was the Blakesley Pouch, which held loading tubes of seven-rounds each. A leather-covered wood block was drilled out to take the tubes, in varying numbers. The cavalry version, which held 10 tubes (there was an infantry version that held more tubes) and was hexagonal in cross-section, was carried by a leather strap suspended from the shoulder. There was a short strap that allowed the box to be connected to the belt, to keep it from flopping around. A sketch can be found in Vol. II of Randy Stefan's bookset "The Horse Soldier". The upper end of the Pouch had a cap-style closure, fastened by a strap and stud finial. In practice, the troop would remove the magazine tube follower assembly from the buttstock of the Spencer, hold it in the fingers of the left hand, removed a tube with 7 rounds from the pouch, poured the cartridges down the magazine from the Blakesly tube, re-inserted the follower in the buttstock, and either threw away or returned the empty tube to the pouch (depending on the heat of combat, you were supposed to save the tubes for re-use).

There were also CW leather cartridge belt pouches with wood insert blocks drilled for the cartridges used in various CW metallic cartridge-firing guns. These included the Spencers. Some were also later used for .50-70 rounds. The later Hagner #2 leather belt pouch had 24 canvas loops inside, 16 inside the pouch and 8 on the front, but all covered by the flap. These loops can hold either Spencer ammo (.56-56 or .56-50) or .50-70 Gov't. Later, the McKeever style boxes in both .45-70 and later .30-40 Krag and even .30-06 were issued, primarily to the infantry, but there were cavalry versions. (I believe McKeevers are still used by the 3rd Inf. at the Tomb of the Unknowns, but I could be wrong. They are probably empty, just for show.)

Probably the most widely-issued, though not so popular, was the M1874 Dyer Carbine cartridge pouch. This is the one I make. It has no loops inside, but a wool liner on the front and back walls, and can hold around 30 rounds of .45-70 (or 8 rounds of 12 ga. shotshell for Cowboy matches!)
Because the rounds are carried loose, they are very easy to get to and withdraw cartridges from. The wool tends to keep the ammo from shifting too much.

The disadvantage of the Dyer pouch (and, indeed, all the others) is that they concentrate the weight and are fairly bulky. The Dyer board attempted to solve this problem by designing the 1874 Hazen slides, which were in .45-70, and carried 20 rounds, with 12 on the front row and 8 on the rear. The rear side had the three leather belt loops sewn to it, taking the place of 3 rounds, which were carried on the front row, rather than two rows of 10 ea. Supposedly, two were to be issued to each trooper, but whether they actually were issued and used is open to question as few come to light.

While the Ordnance Dept. was floundering around, the troops took matters into their own hands, resulting in the creation of the various configuration of leather "prairie" belts (aka "thimble" or "mountain" belts). These were usually made up from waist belts by company saddlers, probably with the tacit or direct approval of the C.O.'s. The belts had the advantage of distributing the weight, and permitting a larger number of rounds to be carried, depending on the size of the trooper's waist, and what else was to be carried on the belt. The distinct DIS-advantage was that the combination of leather loops and copper cartridge cases, with moisture, resulted in verdegris (green corrosion) forming on the ammo. The combination of verdegris, soft copper cases and BP fouling resulting in cartridges sticking in the chambers of the M1873 Springfields. (BTW, there is NO evidence of Custer's demise being related to verdegris...his troops didn't live long enough to fire their carbines enough to have problems with stuck rounds. Reno and Benteen, on the other hand, DID have to clear a number of carbines with stuck shells.

The final development in the 1870's was the CANVAS prairie belts issued by the Ordnance Dept. beginning in late 1876 to both cavalry and infantry. (The latter had brass loops to permit the bayonet scabbard to be hung on the belt.) These were varnished canvas, with a layer of leather between the folds of the canvas, and a brass or iron buckle and a leather tongue.

The loops on these were sewn to the belt body. Technically, these are NOT "Mills" belts, as that term is correctly applied to the canvas belts where the body is heavier and the loops are woven directly into the body. The belt and the machinery were designed by Capt. (Bvt. Col.) Anson Mills, whose brother-in-law managed the company that produced them. Today this would be a distinct conflict of interest, but worked out well for Col. Mills.

For more information on the pouches, consult "Indian War Cartridge Pouches, Boxes and Carbine Boots" by R. Stephen Dorsey.

[Two Flints]

From an article in Man at Arms, entitled, "The Blakeslee 'Quickloader'", March/April 1982, written by Roy M. Marcot. This is for Snapshot!   Two Flints

Blakeslee Dimensions

Variation              length       width         depth         # tubes          tube length

6 tube model            12"         2- 3/4"        2"             6                11- 5/8"

10 tube cavalry         12"         3- 3/4"        2- 5/8"       10                11- 5/8"

13 tube infantry        12"         4- 7/8"        2- 5/8"       13           9 @ 11- 5/8"
                                                                                           4 @ 11- 7/8"   

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

6  tube model    empty   weighs 1 lb.   6 oz        with ammo   4 lbs. 9 oz.
10 tube model    empty   weighs 1 lb.  14 oz        with ammo   7 lbs. 3 oz.
13 tube model    empty   weighs 2 lbs. 11.0z.       with ammo   9 lbs. 9 oz.

[Harve Curry]

great pictures Two Flints, they were some real craftsmen to make them so beautifully.

[geo]

the blakeslee box held six or ten (i believe) tubes of seven rounds each. the ten tube model must have weighed a ton. civilwarleather shows a blakeslee box of their manufacture (on website). i have a six tube model of theirs. methinks if you go to the north south skirmish association site and do some searching in their archives there are at least two long articles on the spencer and the blakeslee box. i also think if you just put blakeslee box into google you'll get results. most civil war arms books show the blakeslee box. if you are talking about a belt mounted box it's the smith cartridge box. i have one also from civilwarleather. good luck, geo.

[Snapshot]

Exelent, thanks a lot. With the pictures and the measurement I will be able to reconstruct the Blakeslee Cartridge box.
I will go for the 6 tube, first. 

One more Q. What is the extra rom in front for.  You know the flat litle one with a flap...?

I am exited about get`n the 56-50 Spencer Rifle, and get`n the aqoutremnets for it, it just feels really right.

[Two Flints]

Snapshot,

The 6 tuble Blakeslee had a small impliment pocket with a size of 2- 3/4" x 4- 1/2".   The 13 tube Blakeslee also had an impliment pocket with a size of 2- 1/2" x 6".  The 10 tube Blakeslee did not have the impliment pocket.

The pocket was used to carry cleaning supplies or small tools for the Spencer.

Snapshot I will still send the article to you, it has one very special diagram I can't re-produce here for you.

Two Flints

[Snapshot]

Two Flints, the article on the Blakeslee Cartridge Box arrived to day. With this and the measures you previousley gave here on the SSS, I will be able to reproduce the Blakeslee!  Thanks a lot.

Mailed the 22.nd of February and arrived in Norway the 1.th of Mars. That makes 7days. Not bad.

[Two Flints]

Snapshot,

Wow, that was fast.  I was thinking next week you might get it. 

That pouch on the Blakeslee was originally intended to carry cartridges for whatever revolver the soldier had on his person.  It was placed on the first Blakeslees made, but later on, because if loaded with more (revolver) cartridges the weight of the Blakeslee increased too much, it was eliminated from later made Blakeslees.  Still could be used to hold cleaning and repair tools, though.

Two Flints

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I tried Blakeslee boxes.  First I had a 6 tube, cool, but a little bit of a pain in the butt.  Then I sold it and got a ten tube.  It was cooler, but really a pain.  (70) 56-50 cartridges weighs a bunch, and the thing really gets in the way, especially on horseback!

I now use a civil War carbine cartridge pouch, without a block (cartridges loose), when in uniform, and a 1874 wool lined Dyer pouch on my cowboy belt when in civilian.  The Dyer works great!!!!!. Not as prone to lose rounds and holds more than the cavalry cartridge box.

[Dakota Widowmaker]

There were also these style boxes for cartridges, but in 56 Spencer. (not 30-30 like the photo shows)

They had the internal flap like the US federal musket cap cases used.


they were also black...

They carried 20 rounds in 2 rows of 10 within a wooden block.

I have a pic of it, but, I need to scan it in and post it...

I am in the process of making one myself.

[French Jack]

Spencer issued a cartridge box with the arms delivered to the USA.  The box was an over the shoulder design much like the Enfield or Springfield cartridge box.  It had a tin liner and was divided into two compartments, side by side.  It held six packets of cartridges, for a total of 42 rounds.  The packets held 7 cartridges, and were wrapped in kraft paper.  This was the same number of rounds and packaging that was contained in most paperboard boxes of ammunition.  Pictures of the cartridge box are shown in Roy Marcot's book on The Spencer Rifle.  Also used were the belt boxes with wooden blocks bored out to hold twenty rounds. 

[Snapshot]

Another Question for ya-all, and perhaps aspecial for our moderator Two Flints who has been extremely helpful with all my previous questions.....!

A friend of mine have cut some of the leather parts and a girl he knows at he`s woork are in the prosess of making the internal wood-block.
Question is what is the diameter of the drilled holes, and what diameter is the tinn tubes? I guess we could work all that out if we know the diameter of the brass with the rim. My guess is that the tinn tubes would be around 14mm inside.?
Then the holes in the wood will be around 15mm.  Ya-all see, I do not own a rifle in 56-50 yet, and then I would not have any brass to measure either. DW is kind enough to help me out with a modified mold and some of the other aqoutrements that I need for the Rifle. For that I am greatfull.

[Two Flints]

Snapshot,

I will have to pass on this one.  I only shoot .45 Schofield rounds.  One of the SSS members who shoots 56-50 is in a better position to answer your question, which I have repeated below.


"Question is what is the diameter of the drilled holes, and what diameter is the tin tubes? I guess we could work all that out if we knew the diameter of the brass with the rim. My guess is that the tin tubes would be around 14mm inside.?"

Two Flints

[Dakota Widowmaker]

The case head is .660" dia, so, going with a tube that has an 11/16th inch inside dia would do the trick.

The OAL for cartridges to cycle in the Spencer is 1.625", so, figure on keeping the sizes down to 1.65" when figuring length.

The actually made these boxes with as many as 17 tubes, if I remember correctly. All that ammo would add upto several pounds hanging from your shoulders. God save the poor soul trying to cross a river with that attached to them.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Howdy,

I'll give you some diameters tonight or tomorrow.  One thing to remember.  Original blakeslee box blocks were made from several layers of wood, joined after they were bored on a jig.  The bit drifts too much trying to drill 12 inches in hard wood.

Also, wood will swell with moisture in the air and not allow you to withdraw the tube unless you allow plenty of clearance; maybe 2-3 mm (minimum) over outside diameter of tube.

The little compartment is for the disasembly tool.  Check Marcot's book for a description of the tool.

Blakeslees are cool, but are a PAIN, especially on horseback.  I use an 1874 wool lined Dyer pouch from Pacific Canvas and leather ($45 US) for civiliaan wear, and a Civil war carbine ammo box with no wood block for miitary dress up.