Question for Pettifogger on Uberti Tuning Tutorials

[Jimeast]

First:  Thank you for your efforts, awesome tutorials!

Question: When updating the hand spring from a leaf to coil spring, is there any change in the way the cylinder rotations feel or sound?  Any other benefit beyond the reliability of a coil spring vs leaf? 

I have never handled a Uberti or Pietta with the coil spring modification you suggest and am trying to set my expectations for the end result.

[Coffinmaker]

I must apologize.  I'm not Pettifogger.  I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express (That I admit to), but ....... it depends.  Depending on the gun and how well you do the rubbin-n-buffin in the hand channel, and iffin you get the hole for the spring and plunger correct, the rotation of the cylinder will be and feel much smoother.  The "clicks" may be a little softer sounding .... or not.

From my perspective (ex Pro Gunsmith), the primary reason for this change is to NEVER have a broken hand spring in the middle of a match.  Or any other time either.

Coffinmaker

PS:  ALL of my guns have been converted to Coil Spring and Plunger

[Jimeast]

Coffinmaker, thanks for the reply!  I apologize for not making sure the questions was open to all that could offer advice.

[Fox Creek Kid]

I am biased and despise the coil spring as they feel mushier. FWIW, the foremost Colt SAA gunsmith in the country, Jim Martin, feels the same way. Most people would never notice a difference however. It's purely a personal thing.

[Lefty Dude]

I agree with Jim Martin on the Colt Springs, as he tuned my pair of Colts I bought from the Custom shop. However the hand springs and trigger/bolt spring used in the Pietta & Uberti's are not Colt products. The Colt hand spring is totally replaceable, not so with the Italian Hands. The springs are crimped in the slot. This crimp stake leads to a weak point on the base of the spring. And after sometime, and only a few dozen hammer puills, breaks. I was luck with one of my Pietta's I got several hundred rounds before it broke and left me stranded half way thru a stage.

This is a total non comparison of the issue at hand.

All my Cap & ball revolvers have the Pettifogger hand spring modification, I do not use wire springs for my T&B springs. For the T&B, the Pietta factory springs are as close to the Colt springs as you can get.

The new cartridge Hand Gun SAA from Pietta & Uberti all have spring and plungers for the hand springs. Not so with the Cap & ball revolvers. Colt has not changed and will most likely never will change.

[45 Dragoon]

Yap, Jim and I have talked extensively about the coils and flats.

Correctly tuned, the flats will pretty much last as long as the revolver. All of them ( no matter the make) come from the factory over stressed and WILL break if not fixed. The hand springs can be contoured correctly and give good service. The nice thing about a flat hand spring is it can (and should) act as a progressive spring which allows for an easy spin but still helps control throw-by. The coil is at its lowest tension (instead of the highest) when it needs to be braking the cylinder. This is why you can short stroke Rugers and observe throw-by at will. Coils and plungers are an easy fix for competition and do their job well (ever seen any Rugers at a match? Ha!!!) but, you can set up a race gun with flats that will run better and last as long or longer (it takes a little time and knowing how).

That said, I do like coil and plunger actuation of a solid bolt (Ruger) and trigger return (ROA). That setup with either of the above hand set-ups and a tuned flat main would make for a bullet proof Remington or open top revolver (I would stay with my preferred flat hand spring for the progressive aspect and a tuned flat main is more than needed and can be progressive as well).

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Navy Six]

Not picking sides here(I don't think), but I've always been curious about the reports of the short life span of a flat hand spring. Some of my Uberti cartridge guns have given about 20 years service in Cowboy shooting. I've had exactly one broken spring during that time. Took less than an hour start to finish to replace. None of my Colts, which are even older and similarly used, have ever broken one. Have a whole bunch of Uberti cap & ball-but used more lightly--none broken. Of course, I've cleaned up the hand channel(amongst other things) on all these guns with a noticible improvement in smoothness. I even converted one Uberti( that originally had the coil spring & plunger) to the flat hand spring by replacing the hand unit. I did that because of that darn tiny set screw. Got tired of chasing it due to somewhat frequent tear downs--which I now know aren't necessary--due to shooting blackpowder. Didn't realize at the time the screw was unnecessary and the backstrap would hold the spring in place.
Hope my luck holds out with these springs(now I've done it!). Got too many guns to think about converting them. If one gun goes down I'll just grab another pair.

[Lefty Dude]

Jim Martin helped Khuhusen ? write the Colt Shop manual.

[45 Dragoon]

Yap and was consultant/proof reader for a lot of it.   (Jerry Kuhnhausen)


In fact, that book was the main reason I decided to include an action stop as normal service. The SAA was designed to incorporate a stop but manufacturing tollerances didn't come to fruition (for the designed stop) so it didn't make it to production. I figured if it was something the designers wanted, I would make sure mine would meet their standards, even though mine is an add on.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Coffinmaker]

I seriously doubt there are any of us who professionally work on Colt design SAs who don't have a very worn   copy of Kuhnhausen's
shop manual readily at hand.  There isn't much that isn't in there.
I'm just a stickler for absolute reliability or as close as I can get to that end.  I have personally never liked wire Trigger/Bolt springs as to
me, they feel mushy.  I tuned flat t/b springs until I discovered Pietta T/B springs, which are about perfect right out of the box.  Minimal
attention to make em bullet proof.
The flat hand springs have been a different matter entirely.  They can and do fail.  Always at the worst possible time.  I like the improved smooth and reliability of Coil Spring and Plunger for the hand.  "IF" the Bolt is fit to the cylinder notches, properly fit on the trailing side,
correctly timed with the hand correctly set up, the cylinder WILL NOT throw-by.  I have the same insurance policy Dragoon includes in
his guns.  An action stop.  At battery/lock-up, the action STOPS.  NO further movement.  The problem arises when the foregoing conditions aren't met.  That is where skilled Gun Plumbers come in.  We have a very dog-ear'd copy of Xuhnhausen's book and we've screwed up a
lot of parts learning our craft.  I've retired from active work.  Had to.  But trust me, my own guns are dead reliable and I am willing to state
they are just as reliable as any well tuned suppository shooter. 

Coffinmaker

PS:  The Pietta Cap Gun hand spring is KRAP out of the box. 

[Coffinmaker]

Forgot.  Where's Pettifogger??  Oh, wait, he is at Shot Show.  Never mind.

Coffinmaker

[Fox Creek Kid]

...I have the same insurance policy Dragoon includes in
his guns.  An action stop.  At battery/lock-up, the action STOPS.  NO further movement...

  Explain, please.

[45 Dragoon]

FCK,
Normally, when you bring a S.A. with a Colt type action to full cock, their is usually the ability to pull the hammer back even further. What you are doing is forcing the hand to continue to try and rotate a locked cylinder. This is how damage and wear happens to the hand, ratchet, locking notch and the bolt.
An action stop does exactly that. It stops the action from cycling and prevents the wear/damage to the parts mentioned and extends the life of said parts. The design of the hand boss (where it attaches to the hammer) was meant to be an action stop by contacting the web between the hand passage (chimney) and the hammer slot. The tollerance from unit to unit was not sufficient for that to happen so the idea that the new "two fingered" hand was stout enough to handle the "extra" force from heavy thumbing. There goes the action stop idea.
Along comes the 1950's and the big screen fast draw and fanning and suddenly there was a real need for a positive action stop and bolt blocks and "special set-ups" for revolvers. Otherwise, certain destruction would happen to the S.A.

I like for a S.A. to be "all purpose", built like a tank but easy to handle. That gives confidence to its owner and removes the wrestling with trying to cycle an over sprung action. Above all, it should be absolutely reliable, which means, it should have built in protection for the action. That is the reason a bolt block and an action stop are always included in my service.
 The fast draw and fanning competition brought about the ability to build the S.A. to a point of extreme reliability and a robust action. The difference between my service and a fanner competition action is in the actual timing. It's a race gun with correct factory timing.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Navy Six]

45 Dragoon, thanks for explaining about the action stop. If that information is in Kuhnhausen's manual I must have missed it and I better go wear the thing out a little more.

[Lefty Dude]

There is a lot to digest in the Colt Shop Manual. When I last met with Jim Martin in Kingman, AZ., My Friend took his Manual along and Jim signed his name by the Credit given him in the front of the manual.

Jim Martin is an interesting Fellow.

[Jimeast]

Can anyone provide a picture or an explanation of where an action stop is placed on an 1858 Uberti New Army? 

[45 Dragoon]

Jimest,
It is a set screw mounted on the trigger guard so that the hammer will push the mainspring down to meet it. I'll see if I can post a pic.
Well, my pics are to big. I'll see if I can pilfer one of mine  from another site. This would be for the S.A.A. and like revolvers along with the open tops.

I mount the  stop for the Remies on the lug of the trigger guard. It's pretty tight and the hammer must be clearanced. This is very worthwhile Mod. for all S.A.s. though.



Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[45 Dragoon]

Navy Six,
Page 193 does all the slpaining .  .  with diagrams no less.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Jimeast]

45 Dragoon, since you mentioned it and then looking at the action area near the back of the hammer and spring, using the trigger guard for the set-screw location looks like the only place to add an action stop.  Pic's would be appreciated

[Navy Six]

Thanks for the page info, 45 Dragoon. Amazing there is so much too learn on such a simple design.