New Armi Sport Spencer jamming on blanks

smittyc7 · January 31, 2015, 06:52:09 PM

I just picked up a new Spencer to use instead of my original. Bought it from a CAS person in Texas. I test loaded it with 7 empty blanks and found 2 problems.

1. The magazine tube will not slide in if you put more than one or two blanks in it. I think I have that solved by slightly beveling the end of the tube outwards, giving in a slightly funnel shape, which helps guide it around a blank.

2. and much more serious, the rounds won't feed unless I really force the lever back closed, which results in part of the round that would be lead on a live round to be shaved off.

Here is the question. The guy I got it from thought he was getting a 56-50, but got a .44 (I need to check exactly), sent it back to Cimmeron and they put a new barrel on it. He live fired it about 20 times and realized he didn't want it, it was too hard to use and you had to force the rounds.

What I suspect and I hope I'm wrong, but is the block mechanism the same for all calibers or do I have a mismatch between a 56-50 and a .44 with few options?

And if the worst case is changing out the block going to solve anything?

Right now it is a fancy single shot.

Smitty

smittyc7 · January 31, 2015, 10:03:32 PM

More. Called him. Nice guy. It was originally a 45 Scholfield and any mods were made by the factory. The factory rep told him he had to rack it fast and hard both ways for it to feed properly. I'm 50/50 on that answer. Anyone else have a similar problem?

Two Flints · February 01, 2015, 04:59:58 AM

Smittyc7,

Need more info in your original post . . .

I would think that every internal part in a Spencer is "sized" to accommodate a particular sized cartridge . . . hoping our resident experts will chime in here

What size blank cartridges have you tried to load in your Spencer . . . 56-50, 44-40, or 45 Schofield?

When you modified the magazine, what caliber cartridge were you trying to feed into the Spencer?

Do you know who did the repair work on the Spencer? What "mods" were done? What "factory" did the repairs?

Why was the barrel changed out in the first place? It should say on the (new) barrel what caliber it is designed for? Does it?

And, you shouldn't have to "rack it hard both ways" to feed a cartridge into the chamber?

Have you tried loading the blank slowly to see where the obstruction/problem might be?

Two Flints

Blair · February 01, 2015, 09:59:42 AM

smitty,

My first thoughts would be that the ammo (what ever that is) is too short to feed properly through your Spencer.
What is the over all length of your finished blanks that you are trying to use?

I have no clue what is going on with the mag tube.
I have a very early repro in .44 Russian. The wall thickness in that mag tube is very thick to minimize the inside dimension for the smaller cartridge dia. of the .44 Russian.
The ammo I load up uses a 225 gr FPRN bullet. This OAL is shorter than the original .44 Russian, which was 246 gr. RN bullet This shorter round does cause the action to seem a bit stiff. But, when closing the action, the next round in the tube is pushed back into the mag tube by the breech block, allowing the action to close.
My best,
Blair

Herbert · February 01, 2015, 01:45:51 PM

The original calibre of the Spencer makes a big difference,the early 44 Russian and 45 Schofield Spencers have a smaller opening in the frame for feeding and a different magazine and extractor system and take a fair bit of work to convert to the longer cartridges but this can be done,the later longer cartridges are reasonably interchangeable as far as parts go except for the barrel.I have had to fix a lot of feeding problems with the AS spencer and the fix can be as simple as cartridge over all length and nose shape, cartridge guide spring being too weak or the came being the wrong shape.A properly tuned Spencer with the right cartridge OAL will feed so smoothly that you can not tell it is feeding at all(cycles the same as when it is not feeding).If you can describe what the cartridge is hitting on before chambering I may be able to help

smittyc7 · February 01, 2015, 09:31:08 PM

I'm using 56-50 blanks by Veteran's Arms, and since I use them in my 56-56 quite well, that in itself probably is ruled out.

It is a Cimarron Arms, the original owner took it back to the company (he lives close to them) and had them convert it to 56-50. The barrel has a different serial number, and he told me they switched the barrel from the 45 to the 56-60. What I don't know, and I don't think he does either, if CA changed anything else, or if they had to and might not have. I think I will call them tomorrow and see if they have, and will divulge what the history of the piece might be.

I am unimpressed with how thin the magazine tube is. Thin to the point of being sharp, and easily dinged. To bevel the opening, I used the shaft of a screwdriver and just ran it around the opening.

Right now, I'm only going to use blanks for reenacting, not really wanting to put a live round in something I'm not sure of. I still have all my fingers and nose and I kinda like it.

I have slowly racked it, but tomorrow I'll do it and see if I can analyze what is going on better.

I don't think racking one hard is correct and acceptable, that goes against reasonable treatment of a fine piece of machinery.

Herbert · February 01, 2015, 10:55:27 PM

The original Spencers feed very smoothly with correct length cartridges,this was very important as the rim-fire cartridges were very soft and I belive they would explode with the pressure that the AS Spencer takes to feed cartridges.I have fixed feeding problems for the 56-50 by changing the height of the cam an the cartridge stop distance to the same as in the original 56-50 Spencer,my AS spencer feeds as smooth as a original now but there is hardly a part that I have not modified in some way

smittyc7 · February 02, 2015, 12:04:29 PM

Messing around with it today, and it seems that the round is being pushed up too high before chambering. If I press it down with a small screwdriver, I can chamber it okay. Have to repeat it until I get down to 3 or 4 in the magazine, then they feed okay. That made me try putting 7 rounds in, leaving the magazine out, and putting the muzzle on the floor, and trying it. All 7 rounds ran correctly. Retried with 7 rounds and the magazine in, and the first couple hung up. So, it appears that the spring is too stiff, OR there is a combination of adjustments that allow the round to stick. Is there a way to adjust the cam that the round slides out on to a lower profile?

Herbert · February 02, 2015, 01:46:41 PM

I file the cam height down to original height .122 inch height at major point above the block with a curve down to .06 inch at front of cam,it is best to take the top block of to do this as you will need to put a slight curve towards the back of the block to smooth things up.Changing the length of the stop is a bit more fidelly, but still very easy ,involves shortening the extractor to .475 inch from centar of pivot hole,changing the angle of the extractor(but still leaving the curve on the front of the extractor so it will not dig into the frame)and reduce the lip thickness of the lip on the back of the extractor (this also moves the stop slightly forward) best to go off a drawing for this but if you go slow you will get there

Blair · February 02, 2015, 03:37:13 PM

Herbert,

Thank you.
I know very little about the repro AS Spencer's and all the variations they have made to their firearms over the years.
Your input has been of great value to me.
My best,
Blair

nactorman · February 14, 2015, 05:14:45 PM

Here is a link to a video I put together that outlines some modifications that can be performed on the Armisport (Chiappa) reproduction Spencers that will make shooting blanks easier. It also includes some troubleshooting tips.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8I345NB6rU&feature=youtu.be

Charles

smittyc7 · February 14, 2015, 08:15:54 PM

Charles, that is perhaps the best howto video I have ever seen. Much appreciated, now I'm hauling out my tools and getting busy.

smittyc7 · February 15, 2015, 07:48:53 PM

Spring was about 6 inches too long
Firing pin was okay. A stinker to get lined back up, but easy once I figured it out.
Rounded the top block a bit.
flared the magazine tube a bit more, I can load all seven with ease now.

cam. I messed with it before the video, and I still have a few issues. Will mess with it more tonight. I used a dremel with a sanding drum. Using your gravity feed observation method, it appears that the nose is tipping down, catching on the bottom of the chamber, which means I took too much off the front, or not enough off the back. Since I have the back or highest part down to .122 now, I'm thinking I took too much off the front. I'll continue to mess with it, but I'll order a new cam just in case.

All in all, it runs much smoother already!

Herbert · February 15, 2015, 10:40:43 PM

High spot should be about 1/2 way along the cam,from this point it curves to.06 inch above the block at the front of the cam and curves to bloc height at the back (top block end) .mark these 3 points the draw a even curve between them and you should be right

smittyc7 · February 16, 2015, 03:33:43 PM

Yeah, I've hosed the front, took too much off. Taylor Arms is sending me another one. $19.95 is not bad and I ordered a magazine spring for it also. While I'm not happy that I jumped the gun and messed with it, I am pleased with how easy it is to modify and to find parts at a reasonable price.

Herbert · February 16, 2015, 05:10:07 PM

I should have given you more information on the shaping of the cam ,for some reason I thought you had a original Spencer to go off,this is how I came to re-shape the ones I have worked on,originals are just so much smoother than a unmodified AS Spencer but with a little work they can be made to work just as well or better than originals

smittyc7 · February 16, 2015, 05:45:58 PM

I do have an original, and both ends of the cam arc down to nothing, and that is what I went by. Neither end is .06. I jumped the gun (so to speak) and should have waited for more info.

Herbert · February 16, 2015, 06:11:52 PM

Yes on all but the original Spencer with the Lane type extractor the cam is much longer,because the AS spencer also uses the Lane type extractor the cam has to be shorter but the curve remains the same over the same distance which leaves the end of the AS cam .06 inches above the block when it is re-shaped.Maybe someone with more computer skills than me could do a drawing and post it showing the difference between the AS Spencer cam and a original cam (do not show the original cam from the Spencer with the Lane extractor as this is shorter than the AS one and had its own problems)

smittyc7 · February 16, 2015, 07:44:52 PM

It is snowing and sleeting out, so being somewhat bored, I found some JB Weld, took the mismanaged cam out and built it up a bit and tried it. 7 ran through it as fast as I could run the action. Very pleased. When the new cam comes in, I'll be back in business!

smittyc7 · February 17, 2015, 10:40:52 AM

Back to square one.

Taylor Arms, being somewhat useless in my eyes, has informed me that the cam and the magazine spring are out of stock, and could they put me on backorder?

So, does anyone have a suggestion of where to find the parts, from a company that is more reliable, or at least embraces the basic stock tracking that the corner market has used for years?

Grumpy