My adventures in the dark arts

[Willie Dixon]

howdy all  

I thought I'd share this here, since there's Remingtons, Colts, and eventually a rifle... or two... or four!  

I've had about 10 years of working with blackpowder.  Basically within Rennaissance through the early 18th century...
lots of sails, cannon, and blunderbusses

basically I'm going to have this for anyone to see, however, although I have quite a bit of experience in blackpowder, I am no pro, or certified gunsmith.  Therefore, everything is on you, not me if you take what I write here as "advice."  That ain't the point.  It's more just a journal into the adventures of shooting black with cowboy guns and saving pet loads for each gun.

also, my guns... are "special."  AKA, until this past weekend, none of them were what I'd qualify as "shooters."

I purchased most of my guns at pawn shops or gun shops, at discounted prices because of the condition they were in.  On the outside, they look for the most part good.  But trust me, inside they all needed their own little bits of work, some of them still.  I've restored cars, boats, and hand-built a wheel-lock pistol and a doglock as well.  I ain't certified in any way, but this also ain't my first rodeo.  

so seriously, don't take this as wholehearted advice.  Just the ramblings and notes of a fellow dark-artist.

I have:


First off, a "new in box" Uberti 1847 Walker.  

I picked her up at a nice shop here in Arizona, and no fault to them on what's wrong with the gun.  I honestly think they sell them thinking they'll mostly be "wall-hangers" and "gawkers."  Mental note for me, that they don't really care about the tolerances on the guns they're willing to sell.

basically, her arbor appears to be too long.  Doing the "Pettifogger" check, as I like to call it, I can't get the barrel anywhere near the lugs even, let alone the frame.  Basically she's off by about an easy 1/8th of an inch.  



beyond that, she's good.  She's rough, missing her front sight, and there's a ding in her barrel, I'm thinking she was dropped at some point.

basically the surface rust was there when I got her, along with the dent in the barrel, so I was able to haggle the pricepoint a bit.  I still think I payed too much, but so be it.  She was my first, and I've learned alot from her.

As soon as I get a shop to work in, she's getting completely stripped back to bare metal, fully polished out, re-blued, and doing a real bone color case hardening on her frame, trigger and hammer.  Until then, I've kept the rust to a stopping point almost now.  I'm tearing into her tomorrow, soaking her in that Kano Kroil and seeing what I can do from there without making too much of a stink, or mess   but hopefully keep on preserving her.

however, there is no "pie shape" gap between the cylinder and barrel, it honestly just appears the arbor is too long, by that 1/8th of an inch.  The wedge won't even go back into the gun now, thanks to that gap.  The wedge was even boggered a bit when I got it out, that was my first hankering something wasn't quite right that I missed at the store:


I haven't tried the "hit it with a rubber mallet" yet, because honestly, she's been just cleaned up and sealed with bore butter since I got her, couldn't get her back together, and has been sitting safely ever since.  I just found out today about the super tight tolerances on the Uberti Walkers as far as the arbor.  But to be fair, she's been lubed, oiled, and sealed.  She isn't rough or tight in any way anymore, and I still can't get that barrel down deep enough, even pressing down hard on the carpet.

A Pietta .44 caliber Colt Navy

found her in a pawn shop, and as soon as I asked to look into her, and the guy knew I knew more than him, he had his manager come over and talk with me.    Apparently I have a wee bit of a baby face, I blame being Irish.  The guy thought I was way under 25 because he asked if I had a driver's liscense and was over 18.  I reminded him the joys of cap and ball revolvers, and then said I was 27.

as I took her apart, I noticed she had been fired, and wasn't cleaned exceptionally well, but was all there and went back together just fine.

I bought her, and her "case" for a song 4 years ago.  Again, I took her home, cleaned her up and bore buttered her up and put her back in her case.

I think between the two, the "price point" evens out just nicely.

and finally:

an Armi San Marco "collector's set" "Officer's and Gentleman" Remingtons, a New Model Army, and a Pocket model.  


Apparently they're "limited edition," and I picked them up for
1) the price - cheaper than one NMA new
2) they're Armi San Marcos.

basically, I've held, restored, and worked with real original New Model Army Remingtons.  And as far as the "fit" basically the backstrap/hilt on the Armi San Marco is the closest to the real deal.  It ain't perfect, but it's closer than the other Italians.  That's just my opinion, take it as you like.  To me, the other Italians are basically a solid framed Colt Single Action Army pretending to be a New Model Army Remington.  It's a harsh opinion a wee bit, but it's what I feel.  I think that's why the knuckle under the trigger guard gets wracked so bad with those "others."

why were they cheap?

unfortunately the gun shop was going out of business, and I know personally they had that set for sale for over five years on their shelves.  I blame the "bling." Not going to lie, it ain't what I prefer.  Give me some cold blue and color casing any day.

The arbor was seized up on both of them, and their hammer pull borders on the ridiculous side.  Basically, now that I've gone into them, I think they've never been shot, and only ever sat "looking pretty."

now, them being ASM, and limited edition, they won't be my main match pistols.  I'll take them out, but only for special occasions.

basically, right now, I can't get the arbors back in!  It's too tight! I soaked them with Kano Kroil for about two hours, just to get the arbors out.  Most of the screws are a pain, so yeah, at this moment in time, they're still soaking.  

it is funny though, like I said, I enjoy color case hardening and a cool well polished blue any day over the "pimp guns."  They just aren't my thing.  I like how even faux ivory grips, let alone the real thing, look on blued guns too.  They pop more.

and yet, in their own way, they sure make an interesting set for sure:


all my friends who know me well, admire the guns, then chuckle for a bit and ask "you got these for a song didn't you?"

now, I've had the Walker and Navy since 2010, and the Remingtons for about two years.  From 2008 until 2012 I was working on my undergrad and didn't exactly have time unfortunately to enjoy them.  So I just kept them safe and clean.

my lady, God bless her, asked me about CAS and if we'd try it out.  I was floored and ecstatic.  Mind you, in the past two years, I've been working on stuff that's been... a pain.  And it kind of burned me out of CAS for a bit.  Her asking and prodding, brought me out of that dark pit.

funny how a woman can do that  

this past weekend, we picked up this:

her brass-framed Armi San Marco Colt Navy in .44

yes, yes, history buffs cringe  

now, ironically, until tonight, that was the only gun I felt that was safe enough to shoot.

She's CLEAN and after stoning, polishing, and only a small bit of timing, she's READY.  Well, as far as she's going to get without the new nipples that are coming in.

Today, we went to a SASS affiliated store here in town.  I LOVE him now.  Great shop, good people, and the customers were just as much of a hoot to talk with as anyone.  Apparently one went hunting with his wife for the first time, she made eye contact with the coyote and called it a "cute puppy."  And he swears it would have eaten out of her hand.  

He had EVERYTHING.  Remington #10 caps, well in stock.  Every kind of substitute you could think of.  He can't sell blackpowder because of laws here in Az make it a pain.  He had everything we needed.
flask - check
variable powder measure - check
nipple wrench and nipple pick inside - check  - worked on all my guns too, the ASMs, Uberti, and Pietta.  ALL of them.  Thought that was awesome.
picked up literally everything we need to start sighting these babies in and getting their pet loads figured out.

and

Kano Kroil

typical Murphy's law, the stuff that's supposed to help anti-seize screws and basically anything metal... the lid was all seized up fast!  We had a good laugh at that, but nothing vice grips couldn't handle

I LOVE this stuff now.  It loosened up my Remingtons.  And it cleaned up my Pietta Navy's cylinder like a charm.  It's all polished and purdy now.  Not like new, but definitely well taken care of.  

basically now, we're going to get some different charged paper cartridges, very excited and start honing them in.

as far as getting these guns "ready:"

I follow Pettifogger up until the coil springs.  And I also followed Mike Beliveau's advice throughout GOTOW and his youtube channel.  Between the two, and my knowledge of flintlocks, doglocks, and wheel-locks, I was able to get a gist to where they're well timed and good to go.  Now it's just trial and error to dial in the loads.  I don't do the coil spring adaption, because I like the hand the way it is, and two, I don't have a drill press.  We're in an apartment for the moment.

now, we're ordering SlixShot nipples for all the guns.  But we're going to go ahead and see how they shoot without them, just to develop a base to compare the SlixShot nipples to.

to be honest, caplock has never been my forte.  But coming from the earlier forms of ignition, from matchlock, wheel, to flint, I feel like I have an idea.  I think it's all about the tuning, just like with any flint lock.

we'll see!

hope this is good for everyone else, entertaining at least as we continue our journeys into the dark arts with cowboy guns.  I want to thank Pettifogger and Mr. Beliveau for sharing their knowledge so all of us can have fun too.

and particularly to Leo Tanner.  Something he said changed my life forever, for the better, back in 2008 when I just joined this little group.

1) he taught me the history of the west and how it wasn't won by 92 Winchesters with big loops and Colt Peacemakers
2) he gave me heartfelt advice that's definitely helped me out.

so, Leo, this is all your fault!  

[Willie Dixon]

well,

the magnet didn't work.  I used my girls ASM brass framed Navy and my Walker as "base lines."  There's a definite difference.

no idea on them being maybe stainless either, but then again, I doubt it now too.  Makes sense Italy would gaudy up their brass frames and then charge three times as much for that model just cuz it has "engraving" and "nickel and gold."  And yeah, the casting looks just about what Pony Express is saying as well.

The only good news is, I paid $200 for this set of remingtons.  The arbor won't fit because the metal in front of the cylinder is too proud.  Either that or the arbor is too thick.  I think it's both.  There's no way WD40 or any other petroleum based product is left on these guns.  I stripped them with the Kano Kroil, then soaked them in practically boiling water for about an hour.  Then I cleaned them up, and sealed them with some bore butter after cleaning them up with moose milk.

it's definitely where it just doesn't want to fit.

now I'm debating on what to do.

I'm thinking about selling them all - the nickel navy, the walker, these, just to get a pair that's worth a darn.

[Paladin UK]

Ho WD...

FWIW....

One way to find out whether the frame is either Stainless or Brass is to scratch a bit of plating off in a place it aint gonna show (Like the bolt hole) iffn its Brass it`ll be yella `n easy ta mark, `n iffin its Stainless it`ll stay looking like silver and be far harder to scratch.

Paladin (What cant wait fer Santa  ) UK

[Lefty Dude]

If you are un-happy with the Walker, how much ya want for the piece ?

[Willie Dixon]

Lefty,

I ain't going to lie, I ain't happy with it, and it won't go together because of what's wrong with the arbor.  It's going to take a real gunsmith to fix it.  It ain't short, it's long, and it's off square.

so in that regard, I ain't selling it to anyone here because I care about y'all.  Basically I'm going to sell it to a guy that can fix it, clean it up and then sell it for the work involved, or... I'll just sell it to someone that'll take it here.

luckily around these parts it's easy to get rid of or buy these old guns.  Between its inherent issues, and the ease of getting rid of it here, I'm not going to sell it on CasCity.  Hope you can respect that.

It's going to be the same way with the other guns too.  Right now it's penciled in that I can barter all four for the price of two new fluted cylinder Armies ordered to his shop.  It's hard for anyone else to compete with that, especially when those are the exact guns I want 

[Willie Dixon]

well,

shot both the ASM and Pietta .44 Navy Revolvers today.  Only 5 rounds through the ASM, but 20 through the Pietta.  Even considering her hammer dents (the pietta was dry-fired ALOT before I bought it) she shot off without a hitch!

no hang-fires, miss-fires, non-firing caps, nothing!  Either gun!  It was awesome.  I was very impressed with them.  It was honestly too windy to really see where they printed, but they were as a whole a bit high at 10 yards.

What I found interesting was this:

I measured the depth of the chambers.  The size of the ball, etc, and figured out the maximum load for the cylinders without compression... with the ball, it was only 25 grains by volume!

now, where that's interesting is that we're using Pyrodex P 3F.  From what I've heard that doesn't exactly appreciate compression.  But at the same time, only 28 grains by volume behind a .454 ball, WOW.  I didn't know they over-compressed that much back in the day, or these chambers are a bit light.  One of the two.  I know the "federal standard load" was something like 35 grains of BP.  

but it was fun!  We actually rolled 100 paper cartridges.  I figured out the price, using my local gunshop's prices and here's what I found and what was used:
Hornady .454 round balls - 100 ct
Remington #10 caps - 100 ct
Top Rolling papers - 100 ct
Pyrodex P 3F - 1 lb/7000grains... ish.  I say ish, because grains per volume, you get actually about 30% more in the subs than the real deal I've found.  it weighs less per volume, so you get more, basically.  So in reality, we could have almost 9100 grains in a Pyrodex P 1lb jug.

basically, for us, it was about 16 cents per shot, with only a 7000 gr/lb weight... hehehhehehehe.

I have some pictures to load up if anyone is interested, nothing fancy, but yep.

oh, and the paper cartridges, again, went off without a hitch.  We didn't even puncture the paper with the nipple pick.  Instant ignition, no delay.  It was awesome.  I honestly blame the simplicity of getting the right size cap for the nipples.

both guns had their original stock nipples as well for the record.  It was very impressive to see no issues happen, I was prepared for the worst.

here's some of the pics:

rolling cartridges on Christmas


a paper cartridge - 20gr per volume Pyrodex P behind a Hornady .454 ball rolled in TOPS rolling papers:


about 75 paper cartridges behind my partially disassembled gaudy Pietta Colt Navy:


BOOM! Says the lady!


this is a great shot, you can see the remnants of I think the paper cartridge out in front to the left:

[Sacramento Johnson]

Howdy!
Glad to see you're enjoying your cap and balls!  I just picked up a Pietta '51 in .44 with the short barrel and stainless looking finish as a present from me to me. (Blame it on "Quigley Down Under"; it's the gun Dobkins carries!).   (Frankly, I've had several Uberti colt navies in .36, but just found that caliber too weeny(need more boom!) and sold them off.)  I cleaned the cylinder, nipples and barrel with ballistol and water and then used straight ballistol as a lube in/on the entire pistol. I then put bore butter on the cylinder rod, and the cylinder notches.  I used the factory nipples (I normally use Tresos but didn't have any that fit), Remington #10 caps, Goex 3f, .451 balls and had a blast! (I thought about making paper cartridges, but loading with loose powder and ball is easy for me, so have gone that route with all my C&Bs). 

I think you have the right idea; sell off the stuff that doesn't work and start with good working pieces.

I've taken to shooting 'Frontiersperson' at bigger SASS/CAS matches me and my pard attend, with my Uberti '58 Remington .44s, (my pard prefers his Uberti '60  Armies).  I wish APS were more of a shooting organization; I'd love to take my Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken and C&B revolvers to a match.  There's a Mt Man club here in Las Vegas, NV that allowed C&Bs revolvers when I last visited them a few years back; have been thinking about trying them out again once I get my Hawken load dialed in.

Sacramento Johnson

[Willie Dixon]

johnson,

Las Vegas is only about 2 hours away from me   Do you have a link to that group? E-mail or any form of contact?  I'd love to get into contact with them!

[Sacramento Johnson]

Howdy!
Sorry  to take so long to get back to you.  I see the Spring Mountain Free Trappers mountain man group here in LV no longer has a web site. I  looked at it in November and just tried again now and it doesn't come up.   Don't know what this means but hope it doesn't mean they've closed up shop...

[rifle]

Nice thread Dixon.
Wish I had shops and all like you mentioned around here where I'm at.  I was the "Shop" in my area fer awhile way back when. Muzzleloader rifle shop but I did cap&baller fixin on cap&baller revolvers fer folks too. Quite often (now and then)fer free. I reamed a few chambers fer Hombre too. Sold "Lube Pills" fer the guns too. Cast a million round balls and conicals fer the muzzleloaders too. Wife helped back then.  Made cool lil bags with the shop name on therm to sell the balls and bullets in. Sold used and new cap&baller revs and rifles and made a few rifles too fer sale. Ohio school small bores and large bore Hawken rifles. A man makes and shoots what he likes they say.

That old Walker that's beat up some appeals to me.Calls to me. "Rifle....Rifle ....fix me, fix me ..fix me up like a well tuned machine because that is what I can be". Case harden me....niter blue me....ream my chambers please please. ha ha ha ha ha  Just jokin again......I thunk.

You'd never guess that lil trick bout seein how the arbor/barrel fit in the barrels hole and bottomed or not came from my endeavors( I assume anywhoooo) to help folks with their guns. I was on a quest to get the "bottomed arbor" thing out there fer folks same as I was on a "lube pill/wad under the balls" quest fer years too. I'm glad those things keep gettin spread though the net. Pettifogger has been a real help to folks.
I'm glad A. Pietta does the bottomed arbor thing with his manufactured guns. He used to come on some of the forums.

I'm rambling again.   Bout the old Walker and the wedge and the arbor thing. It looks like the slot in the arbor is not in the right place and was shot/fired and deformed the barrel slots some. Wedge slot in the arbor not placed right whether the arbor is too long or not. Somebody had that gun and shot it that way when they didn't realize it wasn't right.

Lookin at the pic of the barrel I can see there is deformation to the rear of the barrels wedge slot. There is most likely metal pushed into the barrels arbor hole at the rear of the wedge slots. Go in there with a round file and clean that off and the barrel will go all the way on I'd bet and be a lil short fer the barrels hole bottom. It would need the arbor lengthened or a shim stuck in the hole to botttom the arbor when the barrel comes to the frame. If the arbor is in the frame crooked there is a relatively easy fix fer that I know of since I use the process a lot with the old cap&ballers.

I have a process fer puttin a lil steel backplate to brass framers to keep them on the road a lot longer. Includes shorting the cones/nipples some though.

Anywhoooo....the barrel and arbors wedge slot surfaces will need cleaned and shaped back to what they should be and a new tool steel wedge milled fer that beautiful old gun. I like those beat up old guns. I search them out since I always did love fixin them back to great mechanical shape fer posterity.

Anywhoooo...if you do get around to case hardening some of the parts don't fergit to temper the parts afterwards. Don't leave them brittle.
Also.....if you wnt to do some bluing in yer apartment try the "Vans" gun blue. I recently tested it and never seen anything like it. Put it on. Let it sit a few minutes and then...steel wool with 0000 type to get off the powdery stuff and what the steel wool doesn't remove is the bluing. Do a few repeats of the step and it gets a nice dark color .....cool lookin to it and must be relatively durable since the steel wool doesn't take it off. Navy jell is good fer removin rust and old bluing first off. That "Vans" gun blue is pretty good and easy to use and been around since the "40's". Try it. I'll give the phone number if you want to order some.

Anywhooo I liked yer thread bout yer cap&baller revolvers. Nice guns. You came to the right place since the Hombre here know some stuff and a lot of it bout the blackpowder guns. Well you already knew that.

[rdstrain49]

I'll not take the time to read the entire post, so if I repeat, please forgive me.

I've seen lots of short arbors, never long.  Be sure to inspect the arbor well in the frame just in case someone put material in it to accommodate a short arbor.  Just a thought.

[Sacramento Johnson]

Howdy!
I see the Spring Mountain Free Trappers in Las Vegas, NV have a new web site; here's a link:
  http://www.smftlv.com/index.htm