Got My Spencer 56-50 Ordered, Now What? Rapine Mould Information.

[Backstrap Bill]

Howdy,

I have ordered a 56-50 Spencer from Cimarron.  Been reading the posts, lots of good information there.

If you had a new Spencer in 56-50, want to shoot it with black powder, what bullet, etc. wouldl you suggest for a starting load?

Also, anything quirky about the gun that needs to be addressed before shooting (rough trigger/action, etc).

Thankee much,  Backstrap Bill

[Black River Smith]

I am not the expert but will try to give you general amount to info that I acquired to get where I am at with my Taylor 56/50 Spencer.

Read most of the posts below for all and more detail.  Price will as alway be different.


Brass -- Starline brass only or mainly for the Armisport Spencer ~$80+ for 100 -- Buffalo Arm, Midway probably orthers

Bullet Molds -- several available, Lyman 515139 --330grain,  Rapine 350 gr made for the Armisport Spencer  $99 (I called), Buffalo Arm precast and molds, Taylor, I cut a Lee 515-450 down to ~350 grains because I like the pointier flat nose design on it. Romano? maker of the $3000 Spencer also has a mold for the 56/50

Dies  Only one I know of is the Lyman 56/50 ~ $40+ - $60 -- Buffalo Arm, Midway, Taylor Arm.  These are the one I found  but probably orthers maybe C-H dies also

Bullet sizer -- the barrel are lands 0.504 to groove 0.512  so most of us size to 0.512.  Lyman 0.512 -- 450 die ~ $18 - $20 or Lee custom purchased sizer -- $25

Shellholder -- Lyman X-22 or (common one used for 50 cal. blackpowder casings)  don't know Lee # at this time.

Hope this helps your start.

Black River Smith

[Dakota Widowmaker]

Where to do go to get custom Lee sizers?

[Dakota Widowmaker]

Also, if you are using the more pointed bullets based off the of the modified Lee mould (450gr vs. 500gr), what do you seat at for an OAL?

What does the mould look like from number of groves and such?

And again...who did you order your custom Lee sizer die from?

[Black River Smith]

Lee sizer is from Lee directly.  Call and ask for one to be made up.  A friend bought one, I did not.  Even though I really like Lee equipment and pan lube, I went with the Lyman because it was readily available.  I will still pan lube and then push in the Lyman, so far I tried a few and it seems to work, just not as fast.  I do prefer the bottom/base push.

As far the mold.  I started with the 450gr with the small metplat (0.16").  Yes it is because it is more traditional.

I cut the bottom and one grease groove off.  This leaves two grooves and I shoot for a bullet length of 0.855" with a slight bevel.  I am working off the Starline suggestion of 0.375" insertion into the casing.  Crimp over the shoulder/first guide ring just like the original Win 44/40 loaders do.  This should result in an OAL of ~1.63" that sits on the powder and will not slide out.  These are my beliefs/attempts, without the shellholder I have not been able to make any as of yet.   I did make a 0.25" metplat from this mold but the final weight comes out to ~370 grs.  I may try for a 3/16" (0.1875) flat but really not enough differences for the effort.

This will only be loaded with BP.

Hope this answers your questions and give you some ideas.  See my posting  to 31 in the Length of Cartridge posting,  I detail the numbers alittle bit better there.

editted:
Black River Smith

[Drydock]

I keep hearing this argument, using the .30-30.  I don't like it.  lay 2 .30-30s nose to tail and see where the nose of the bullet is. Thats how they lay in the tube, and  how the magazine spring forces them.  Now try it with most any straight walled case.  It ain't the same.  I've seen 2 magazine detonations,  both with factory .38 spcls RNs. Left wood chunks in mens hands.  And that Spencer magazine is right against your cheek.  IMHO, no offence, have a cup of coffee on me . . .

[Dakota Widowmaker]

Bit of sad news...my spencer carbine was sent to the WRONG ADDRESS!!! My FFL is pissed at Taylors and Taylors is the only one that can redirect the rifle to the propper address...

I should have requested a shipping/tracking number a while ago...now its friday and I am still spencerless.

man, what a nightmare...

[Dakota Widowmaker]

Here is what happened.

The FFL paperwork had the correct address and the correct contact info.

They had the right address on the booking system when Taylors processed the order.

But, their shipping screwed the pooch BAD and send the delivery to parts unknown.

Now, from what I am being told, UPS has to ship my carbine BACK to Taylors and then have them RESHIP it.

Taylors is not willing to pay for the freight both ways again...from the smell of it.
(UPS is also being dicks about this...they won't even let my FFL drive the 3 miles to the UPS place and pick it up in person)

What a nightmare... I am hoping for either Taylors to live up to their customer service commitment, or, for UPS to be willing to handle the changes to the shipping address.

We shall see...the saga continues...

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Pard,

Give me yor dealers name and where it was to be shipped.  I will call Tammy at Taylor's and try to get it straightened out.

[Dakota Widowmaker]

I am waiting to hear back this afternoon...(or Tuesday)

It could be that all someone has to do is place a phone call...we shall see.

My FFL is just as eager to get this resolved. (he is out the $$$, I have spent one dime on it yet)

[Dakota Widowmaker]

What does this mean in UPS?

"A DELIVERY CHANGE REQUEST FOR THIS PACKAGE WILL BE PROCESSED;THE RECEIVER REQUESTED THE PACKAGE BE DELIVERED TO AN ALTERNATE ADDRESS"

[Backstrap Bill]

  Yipee skippie, my Spencer 56-50 arrived today.  I had some time to look it over between Trick-or-Treaters.  I have to say that I got quite a treat with this little carbine.  Guess I'd better get busy & order brass and a mould.  What do you think the whitetails are gonna think of those 51 cal slugs next fall?

[Dakota Widowmaker]

I am now being told that it will be shipped out tomorrow...finally!!!

I'll post an update after I take receivership of the carbine...

What a nightmare...I sure hope it shoots better than it ships!!!

[Tuolumne Lawman]

IT DOES !!!!!!! <G>

[Dakota Widowmaker]

Today should be the day...keeping my fingers crossed...

[Backstrap Bill]

Well, got al the ingredients together.

Loaded 49 rounds.  Imagine this, I stopped loading cases when the powder measure went dry.  I ended up with 7 rows of 7 cartridges which translates to 7 full loadings of the carbine.  Is that eerie or what??

Lorenzo Dow & I will run some black powder & lead through the carbine on Veterans Day.  

[Backstrap Bill]

Well, I am a Spencer veteran now.  Lorenzo Dow & I shot 49 rounds, black powder of course.  Ranges were 25 to 200 yards.  The sight on the carbine ain't that great, but we were able to fire 7 shot groups of around 5" with several doubles and no  fliers.  Swabbed the barrel after each 7-shot string.  What fun.  I ain't gonna shoot it again until my 350T Rapine mould arrives & I make some bullets.  We were shooting Buffalo Arms Co, 300 gr 20:1, SPG lubed, Elephant 1F (full case) & Federal magnum large rifle primer.  No leading at all, period, zippo.  We did experience some feeding problems as predicted by other SSS members when usind soft bullets.  I think Lorenzo is gonna get a Spencer ordered today...

[Backstrap Bill]

Howdy,

This 56-50 project is a fun one.     Hear's an update & lessons learned.  Had to relieve the under side of the hammer, it was contacting the frame preventing the firing pin from full motion & peening a spot on the frame, polished & cold blued the areas & I only know they are there because I know where to look.

Had to procure an over-sized chamfering tool for the case mouths, Lyman makes it.

My RCBS case trimmer won't handle the rims nor the diameter of the mouths.  RCBS said their original hand-crank trimmer, model 9360, could be made to work with a conversion kit they sell.  Got a trimmer on eBay & will get the 50+ conversion kit ordered next week.

Dillon says I cannot use any of their presses for this cartridge, rim size is too large.  Loading is a single stage press proposition.  The Lyman dies I purchased are working well.

Got my 512-350-T mould from Rapine last week.  2 cavity, aluminum block, very good handles (easy to grip w/o hand fatigue), LARGE grease groove.  Casted bullets from Lyman No. 2, 20:1, wheel weights, radioisotope container lead (virgin lead + 4% antimony), made 20 of each.  Weight is right around 360, lubed weight is 3 gr more (big lube groove).  Sized them to .512 as were dropping from mould @ .513 - .514.

Had to modify the Lyman # 141 top punch recommended by Rapine, it was cutting into the bullet noses.  Used the old epoxy trick & now it works great.

Made a case holder for annealing chucked into my cordless drill.  The Starline brass is very hard, got blow back all the way to the rims on first firing.

Used some Elephant 1F for first firing with the 20:1, SPG lubed 300 gr. bullets I to from Buffalo Arms.  If I wiped the bore after each string of 7 shots, there was no leading.  With proper light conditions, I was able to hold 3" 7 shot groups @ 100 yards.

Sights on the gun are not conducive to accurate shooting.  Best sight picture is bottom notch on the raised long-range sight, hits about 8" high @ 100 yards with a bottom hold. Might replace or rework them at some point.

Next steps: 

Anneal the brass.

Try with Schuetzen and Swiss 2F, can't get Elephant 2F any more as what was left of Elephant powder is disappearing fast.  Won't mess with Goex at all, it has alwlays caused excessive fouling in my opinion.

Trim the brass.

See which alloy works best.

Get a second set of main springs & work them down.  Trigger return alone has a 10 lb pull!

Maybe mill a slot into the front sight w/hole for roll pin.  Maybe get a ladder sight from Smith Enterprises.

[Oregon Bill]

Bill: Thanks for the clinic on the ArmiPosrt Spencers. I hope to join the ranks of Spencer shooters soon, am very pleased to hear you're getting good accuracy from yours -- certainly adequate for deer hunting. Any guess what velocity you are getting with your 1F Elephant loads?
Bill

[Backstrap Bill]

I haven't put the 56-50 over the chronograph yet.  I have been waiting for the Rapine mould to arrive.  Bullets I was able to get from Buffalo Arms were only 300, the Rapine 512-350-T is dropping bullets in the 360-365 range, depending on the alloy.  I was using the 1F to fire form the brass to my chamber.  All future load development will be done with 2 or 3 F powders & the Rapine bullet.

You are correct in that I plan to shoot deer with the Spencer carbine.  I generally can get to w/in 50 yards of whitetail, took 2 at under 25 yards this yeqar.  No brag, just fact.  So, I am not too concerned about trajectory with the Spencer.  Energy will be just fine to "tube" a whitetail inside of 50 yards, especially if I use a bullet between 20:1 and Lyman No. 2 to promote penetration over expansion.  I think a .512 hole will be enough w/o wanting more expansion, based on past performance with  muzzle loaders and such.

I expect to get some chronographing done in January.  Stay tuned.