Unique belly gun... please tell me this isn't what I think this is.

[Short Knife Johnson]

Good day fellow Darksiders.  I need some help here.  This past weekend at the local gun show I made a deal on this character.  The seller was touting it as a "nice quality 'knock-off' of a Colt Paterson.  After some bargaining with a partner in crime, we made a bulk buy.  I took it to a friends table to get it fitted with new nipples and to procure some goodies.  (I still have the original nips BTW)  The barrel has been expertly trimmed to 3 1/2" precisely.  The insides are mint with a shiny bore and clean chambers.  Mechanics are solid and lock up is like vault.  Numbers I can see match.  Atop the barrel is inscribed "Patent Arms Com" as the end of the barrel is cutting off the inscription.  It was then after purchase when reading the barrel that I recalled reading that Sam Colt's first venture was "Patent Arms Company" of Paterson New Jersey.  Furthermore, the scene of the stagecoach robbery is super sharp and clear.  Not to boast, but for the price paid this is might be the blindest squirrel finding the biggest acorn.  Is there someone who can verify this?  Getting a little light headed at the prospect of this thing being my Holy Grail of Holy Grails.

[Wolfgang]

Looks like an original.   They did make some pretty short ones . . . . but I don't know about quite that short.   I have seen one that had been converted to cartridge !   Back then it was just another gun. 

[Short Knife Johnson]

That's the feedback I've been getting from friends I sent an email to.  Going to phone Colt as soon as their business day opens.  The chop job looks factory it is so well done.  One of these in a cartridge conversion would be pretty cool.  Honest period repairs and modifications generally do not detract from the appeal for me.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Keep us informed on what you find out from Colt.  That would be an unbelievably lucky blind squirrel! Maybe you also need to buy a lottery ticket! 

[hellgate]

I'd handle that thing with white cotton inspector's gloves until I found out it was a repro.

[Short Knife Johnson]

Just got off the phone with the guy from Colt historical department.  They can't help you if you are inquiring about a Paterson.  Will give Dan at the BBHC a call later on.

[Long Knife Rich]

 I have no idea if it's original or not, but it sure would be nice if it was. Good luck, and keep us posted. 

[Short Knife Johnson]

In case anyone is wondering.

Colt doesn't have any records or info on Patersons.  The Buffalo Bill Historical Center in Cody WY has directed me to a fellow in California, but will have to wait until Wednesday next.  Of the people I know who may know that I sent pictures to - 7 think it might be the real deal, 2 think it is likely not, and one thinks there is no way that it is real.

The search continues.

[Major 2]

 "one thinks there is no way that it is real 

A metallurgist can test the hardness , even micro analyze the Grip can be age tested ...there several way to find out.

IF its real you have Gem, If not it's cool as hell   

You did say you put new Nipples in , a good indicator was the thread pitch , Metric ?

[Short Knife Johnson]

Good point.  Thread pitch IIRC was not metric.     They were about #12s or 13s which is why they were swapped out.

Have thought of having a metallurgical test done, but not sure of where I might be able to do so.

I realize it is not likely the real thing, but there is enough of a glimmer for me to chase that rabbit.  Part of me hopes it isn't so as I can shoot the danged thing.  The one glaring departure that I have found is the barrel markings are a slightly different font than some of the samples I have found on the interweb.  Read somewhere that real Patersons have gain twist rifling rates so I will pull the barrel and have another boo down the pipe.  But I do value and appreciate everyone's input.

[Wolfgang]

Very interesting.  Keep us informed.   

[Major 2]

A friend did my Grizwold

I had to asked him what machine was and he said "Texas Nuclear TM Tech 9277"

The read out stated  The barrel  @ 3 points taken were  PT. 1 - 82.0 PT.  2- 92.0 &  PT 3- 97.6

the Cylinder was 87.4 & 87.1  taken at two points.

This and the Rifling , convinced me my Grizwold & Gunnison was LEGIT

[Short Knife Johnson]

Forgive my ignorance but what might those numbers mean? 

[Fredcdobbs]

The cylinder engraving looks cleaner than a lot of Italians I've seen inspite of age. You would think all the screws would be metric, not just the nips. Also if someone could measure the rifling, lands and grooves of an original, a variance there in the number or width and depth could signal a fake or a real one.
I guess I think a faker will only go so far for the amount of money concerned.

[will52100]

Na, it's a fake, and worthless.  Tell you what, I'll give you 50$ for it just to take the sting away.

All in all an awesome find, real or not.  Figure you win either way.

[win1885]

What a cool belly gun!  No problem slipping that baby from a pocket.  I suspect, however, that's it's a cleverly made
repro.  Those are not 175 year old screw heads.  Never seen a gun of that age that had such pristine screw heads.
My thoughts......
Tom I.

[Major 2]

P1. etc = the Point at which the measurement was taken , I suppose this is mapped  

The 82.0 etc. is a measure in Rockwell graduations,  Hardness (Rockwell, Brinell)

Carter Shore (friend)  is an aerospace engineer , he ran the test at work.

[Short Knife Johnson]

Well, wether it is the real deal or not it will not detract from my enjoyment of this piece.  For the price I paid was comparable (meaning "less than") to even the cost of a Pietta repro.   . It is an unintentional habit of mine.  The reason I bought it was because it is a neat piece not because I thought it was a legitimate Paterson.  It was only after further inspection that made me wonder about the veracity of this little fellow.

The hardness testers I've used in the past have been of the destructive sort so I didn't connect the dots.  Was thinking more along the lines of spectrograph analysis.  

Screw heads are deceiving in the pictures.  Most of them are almost impercievably burred as if from installation, and the slots just off centre.  They look similar to my Isaac Hollis sporting rifle.  I forgot to get a shot of the muzzle and the rifling but the grooves are much wider than the lands.  11 grooves and 11 lands by my count.

[sail32]

Nice find.

Checking it the pictures in Dennis Adler book, "Colt Single Action from Patersons to Peacemakers", the step under the front sight looks too sharp.

The pictures tend to show a more rounded contour. This might just be a picture angle thing.

I could find no match for the 3 and 2 lines around the cylinder; the closest pictured ones seem to be 4 and 3 lines.

I would imagine that not all the Patersons are in the book, but it is a good reference.

[Short Knife Johnson]

Thanks for the lead on the book.  The barrel profile looks the same as the pictures I have dug up on the internet. 

I'm still not jumping up and down exclaiming it to be original.  I don't know if I will ever know for certain.  Things like this probably require hands-on inspection by a reputable expert.  Waiting until Wednesday to phone a guy in California that the BBHC directed me to.

In the meantime, we loaded it and shot it.     15 grains of FFFg, lube wad, ball, then some Bore Butter.  #11 caps and kerpow.

We fired 10 rounds at an old building on a friend's property.  More precisely the old house we used to cast bullets in.  2 balls actually failed to penetrate the fir planks, and the rest bounced around inside the building.  Very informal, but wow is that thing accurate.  Nasty trigger pull, but everything seemed to stack into a nice round 3" group at 20 yards. 

If this thing turns out to be real, how many guys (still alive anyway) could claim the 1st C&B pistol they ever fired was a Paterson?