10%-20% higher performance in a '73

[w44wcf]

can be achieved with Alliant RL7 powder while staying well within the safe pressure limits of the '73  (MAP 14,000 CUP).

standard 200 gr bullet:
Current factory jacketed ammo ............1,190 f.p.s.
Early 44 WCF / 44-40 factory ammo .....1,301 f.p.s.  (+10%)
RL-7 powder .......................................1,430 f.p.s.  (+10% / 20% over current)

RL-7 powder / 240 gr bullet .................1,290 f.p.s.

Back in the mid 1990's Alliant published data for RL-7 powder in the 38-40 & 44-40.
I have experience with RL-7 in the 44-40.

Alliant data taken in a 24" barrel using 2 1/2 Remington primers  
240 gr cast bullet / 23.5 / RL-7 / 1,290 f.p.s. / 12,100 CUP (15% less than 14,000 CUP)
The 20% heavier bullet (240 vs 200) at almost the same ballistics as the early 44-40, delivers 20% more punch.

Note that Alliant used a heavier than normal 240 gr. bullet since RL-7 is slow burning in the 44-40 and 23.5 grains is almost a capacity load.

I decided to try a similar load of RL-7 under the Lyman 427098 which is 15% lighter (210 grs).  I increased the powder charge slightly due to the lighter bullet and got an average velocity of 1,430 f.p.s. (24" barrel).

Accuracy was great and due to the slow burning rate of powder, there was some partially burned powder granules in the barrel, but that didn't hurt a thing.    Also, the almost capacity load delivered pretty consistant velocities. 

In a 20" barrel velocity ran about 100 f.p.s. less.

w44wcf      

[KirkD]

w44WCF, the pressures are fine, but what do you think of the extra axial thrust against the bolt/toggle links due to the increased recoil? I don't know if this is an issue or not, but what are your thoughts?

[w44wcf]

Howdy Kirk,

Welcome to the forum!  Good question.  I don't think it is an issue.  Felt recoil is about like that of a circa late 1890's equivalent black powder cartridge.

In addition, interestingly, the PETERS Semi Smokeless 44-40 cartridges that were available from about 1899 to the late 1930's actually produced very close to the same 1,430 f.p.s. velocity based on my testing of original cartridges.   Back in the early 1900's PETERS indicated that their semi-smokeless cartridges produced more velocity than B.P. at equivalent pressures.

So, ballistically the RL-7 loaded 44-40 is the smokeless ballistic equivalent of the vintage semi-smokeless 44-40 ammuntion.

Interesting.

w44wcf

[Reverend P. Babcock Chase]

Howdy w44scf,

It strikes me that as original guns get older, ammo makers tend to lighten loads to compensate for the guns' increasing age.

Reverend Chase

[w44wcf]

Reverend,
Interesting point. But based on modern 44-40 jacketed bullet cartridges I have dissected, the factories are using a faster burning powder which will generate pressures similar to the original cartridge,  but less velocity (1190 vs 1300 fps) .

Early 44-40 factory smokeless cartridges used 14 grs of Sharpshooter or 17 grs of DuPont No. 2 Bulk smokeless.
Today, just 7 grs. of faster burning smokeless has replaced the slower burning powders of yesteryear.

w44wcf

[KirkD]

Very helpful info, w44wcf. Thanks.

[Rowdy Fulcher]

W44wcf
So you can use the Reloader 7 to create a Vintage smokeless round . The 1400 fps sounds pretty fast ,which would be Great for Hunting . What about leading ?

[w44wcf]

Rowdy,
I have never experienced any with my standard 12 bhn alloy.  A month or so ago I decided to see how it would work with a softer (50/1 lead/tin) bullet.  It shot v ery well and no leading.

The chances of leading are greater with faster burning powders than with the slower burning propellants.

w44wcf

[Tascosa Joe]

Considering the lighter bullet is 25 gr of RL-7 a good place to start for the 38-40?  I have a 1906 model 73 in 38-40.  I replaced the toggles and pins with Lee Shavers kit.  It has a decent bore but not great and it shoots pretty well with 7.8 gr of Unique.

[w44wcf]

Joe,
Yes.  Alliant data for the 38-40 with RL7 shows 25.8 grs. @ 13,500 psi with pushing a 180 gr jacketed bullet to over 1.600 f.p.s. in a 24" barrel.

As I recall, a few years ago on another forum, a fellow tried that load in his 38-40 and the velocity, in his rifle was right around 1,500 f.p.s. I don't remember the barrel length.

Either way, good velocity at safe pressures in a '73.

w44wcf
 

[Rowdy Fulcher]

W44wcf
The 1400 + fps was impressive , and the report of a rifle wow . Well the reloader 7 is another choice for someone who wants to build a good hunting load with  smokeless powder . I loaded a handful of ammo to give it a try . Fired over the chronie and they were pretty close . There is lots of powder particles in the barrel after shooting . I used the 200 grain bullet with this load .

[Gripmaker]

W44wcf,   Are these loads applicable to the Model 66 by Uberti?  I have spent the last week searching for a load that can be used for "LONG" distance with this rifle/caliber combination.  BTW, I have been following your thread on BP in the 73 Win. and the guys complaining/whining about the difference in NRA and CAS long distances need to understand some fundamentals of shooting as well as language.  The term "long distance" has more to do with the firearm's normal capabilities than with linear distances.  I also shoot single action revolvers in "Long Distance" matches in a number of different organizations and most people think this to be 100yds. Not so!  I have hit targets from 200 to 400 yds consistently with an Uberti SA in 44-40 as well as my personal favorite JP Sauer SA in 44 Russian, 44 Colt, 44 Spl, 44-40 and 44 Mag.  If any of them do not believe this...whatever. They can find proof on www.Grandarmyofthefrontier.org if they  go to the rules for National Muster and check out the "Little Rule".  This was enacted after shooting the 2009 Grand Muster with a revolver against everyone else using late 1800's military rifles or leverguns. Anything can be accomplished if you spend enough time researching and applying what you have learned and then practice...practice...practice.  The naysayers usually aren't willing to put in the work or are just ignorant of fundamentals. The ignorant I can sympathize with and help...the others, I won't.

Sorry to spend so much time ranting. God Bless and shoot safe.

[w44wcf]

Gripmaker,
In answer to your question...."Are these loads applicable to the Model 66 by Uberti?".... yes, since they are within the SAAMI pressure specs for the 44-40 cartridge.  

Yes indeed, the pistol cartridges can be very accurate at extended distances as Elmer Keith first wrote and some of us, as you, I and others have witnessed for ourselves. .   Before Elmer, back in 1875, Winchester claimed that their '73 was effective and accurate to  500 -600 yards.  Having shot my '73 at 500 meters, I will say they were definitely right!

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,44474.0.html

Here's a 300 meter (327 yards) group with the 44-40.  Cell phone for reference of group size.



w44wcf

[Gripmaker]

W44wcf,  I want to thank you for your numerous posts about the 44WCF on various posts.  As I have been researching all the info I can gather on this subject I have found the most useful info in your posts. I have one question (actually a whole bunch of them) that has come up in your posts. How did you get 36 gr of BP, BY WEIGHT, to settle enough to get the bullet to seat w/o case deformation? Is SWISS powder that much more dense than any of the others that it weighs more by volume?  I have read some of the writings of Dick Trenk on the BPCR site concerning BP cartridge reloading and he says he gets tremendous compaction in his cases merely by tapping them a number of times on his bench after drop-tubing the BP. However, he is loading the 45-70 which has much more space available and using SWISS 1.5-2F powder which has more air space between granules. I tried to compact 36 gr. of 3F yesterday and could only get 30.5 gr. into the case and still seat the bullet w/o case bulge. I was using WANO 3F and the LEE 200RF bullet which doesn't seat as deeply as the 427098. Even though I was not using the exact same materials, I wouldn't think there would be that much of a difference unless powder density was an issue.

[w44wcf]

Gripmaker,
Thank you for the kind words. My current lot of Swiss is 10% more dense than my current lot of Goex & Kik, & 8% more dense than my current lot of Schuetzen. Diamondback has about the same density as Swiss but has the lowest ballistic strength of all of the above powders.  I don't have any Wano to compare it to.

When I load b.p 44-40's, I just pour the powder slowly (4-5 seconds) from about 5-6" above the powder funnel to settle it.

pic of dumped and settled charges and density comparison between two powders.....


Using R-P brass and the 427098,
35 grs. by weight of Goex requires .17" compression.
35 grs. by weight of Swiss requires .05" compression.

I have compressed Goex up to 1/4" using a Lyman "M" neck expanding die and have never experienced a deformed case.

w44wcf

[Gripmaker]

W44wcf,  Thanks for the photos as they explained alot.  I must surmise that the reason my charge did not settle as much as yours is that Swiss is not only more dense but that the granulation also helps out.  In the same powders, 3F would not compress as much as 2F due to less airspace available.  It may be a waste of time but I am going to experiment with some subs I have on hand to see the differences there also. Will be using Pyrodex RS, Triple 7, APP and Goex Pinnacle. Don't wish me luck, just pray that I don't end up doing something stupid. My wife hates having to sit in the emergency room.

[w44wcf]

Gripmaker,
Surprisingly, the difference in weight for the same volume varies very little when using the same powder....if the lot is similar.
For instance, with the Lyman 55 measure set to 40 grs. volume here are the weights:
Swiss 1F ........... 40.0
Swiss 1 1/2F...... 39.5
Swiss 2F............ 40.0
Swiss 3F............ 39.5

Diamondback 2F 39.5
Diamondback 3F 41.5

Schuetzen 2F......37.0
Schuetzen 3F..... 37.2

Goex  2F .......... 36.0
Goex  3F........... 35.8

KIK 2F ............. 36.0
Kik 3F............... 35.4

What brand 44-40 case are you using?

The subs do weigh a lot less than b.p. for the same volume.

w44wcf

[Gripmaker]

W44wcf:   It appears that Swiss is the most dense of all the powders shown. I was surprised to see that Swiss 2F's weight is the same as the volume...at least with this particular lot. I doubt that this would change appreciably with any other lots manufactured by this company, considering their propensity for consistency.

I used three different cases today: RP, new Winchester and older Western. I also have some older Western brass that appears to be transitional from balloon head to flat base. The base is noticeably thinner around the edge with a pronounced hump where the primer pocket is located. They hold more that flatbase but less than true balloon head.

I realize the subs are lighter in weight than BP but I shall be looking for the heaviest (therefore the most dense) of the brands to see only if that may be a viable sub for the BP and to note variations between brands. It will keep me off the streets for awhile and ,hopefully, out of trouble with the wife ;>).  Being retired has its exciting times.

I noticed on one post that you had used RL-7 in the 44WCF using 23.5 gr with the 240gr. bullet and that you had increased that a "little" with the 200 gr. bullet but you didn't indicate the final load. Is it safe to publish the final load?

[w44wcf]

Gripmaker,
I missed putting Diamondback in the original post but have now added it. It is as dense as SWISS and a the 3F is a bit more.
It has the lowest ballistic strength though and is nowhere as clean burning as Swiss.

Your Western cases are the "solid head button pocket type balloon head" and typically will hold about 2 more grains of powder. I believe most if not all of the 44 WCF / 44-40 cases from inception to the early 50's (changed to solid web) were that type. I have a few cartridges that predate 1886 (no headstamp) and are the same case.  It is possible that the very early cases (1873) may have been the folded balloon head style.

As a density / volume comparison to your Wano powder I took a new Winchester 44-40 case and filled it completely to the top then weighed the charge...
Goex 2F  dumped - 37.6 grs.
Goex 2F  ..settled - 41.0 grs.  (9% increase)
settled - dumped slowly holding the pan 5-6" above the funnel

How do those weights compare to Wano?

Regarding RL-7, I'll respond to your email later today.

w44wcf

[Gripmaker]

W44wcf,   Just checked out the WANO in 44wcf  RP case:  40.3 dumped/43.3 settled by just tapping case on benchtop 10 times.  It looks good on paper with a 7.5% increase, BUT, if the power rate is not as good as SWISS......?! I have no way of determining the difference in the two powders.