.45-75 blanks to feed through Model '76 action?

[RattlesnakeJack]

Today I loaded up some some blanks for my Chaparral NWMP .45-75 for use in an 1885 North West Rebellion demonstration I will be taking part in on Saturday ..... of course, the best I can do with blanks loaded in regular .45-75 cases is to fire two rounds in succession (.... i.e. starting with one in the chamber and one in the magazine to feed in when I rack out the first empty ....) which really doesn't allow one to properly demonstrate the "rapid fire" capability of the Winchester compared to the single-shot Snider-Enfield rifles which will also be fired ......

Got to thinking that it would be nice to have blanks which are the full overall length of a loaded .45-75 cartridge, so they would feed through the action to enable firing a full magazine.  Just now, I checked and see that the overall length of the .45-75 cartridge is 2.25" while the length of a .348 Winchester cartridge case (from which .45-75 can be formed, of course) is 2.255"!



Am I all wet here ..... or might it be feasible to re-shape .348 cases to .45-75 configuration, while leaving them full length, so they could be used as multiple fire blanks?   What I am hoping is that they would end up (or be trimmed slightly) the appropriate 2.25" overall length,  perhaps with a slight neck crimp to facilitate feeding.

Any comments?  Has anyone done this?

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

RSJ;  I think you are onto something.  I don't think you need to expand it to have it feed & fire.  About crimping the front.  You might try an unsized .348 to see if it feeds.  Perhaps a bit of a roll crimp, but I am at a loss about a tool to do it. Do you recall those old blanks for the FN C1 with the long folds to make a pointy end?


P.S;  I looked at a .348 case, and I`m not sure if there is any die that could be used to push the shoulder back far enough to allow a full length case to chamber.  In any event, the rest of this thread shows a much better method!

[Short Knife Johnson]

I had this problem a couple of years ago and found a simple - but labourious - solution.  For the activities at Fort Battleford, I make a paper bullet dipped in beeswax that function just dandy through my 1873.  I see no reason this will not work in the 1876's.  I started a thread on here looking for ideas.  As the day progressed, I had my Eureka moment, and added photos and descriptions.  To save time, here is the link.  The end of the page is where it finally came together.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,33962.0.html

The cardboard cutouts with measurements shown are for the .44-40 and the .45 calibre will need to be scaled up.  If you need more help, I would be happy to chat over the phone or via email.

Oh, BTW, the "Grant" I refer to is not you.  It's Grant Tyler - the firearms curator for Parks Canada - from Winnipeg.  Funny thing is, he looks very much like the pcture of you in your avatar. 

[RattlesnakeJack]

Sir Charles:

I've been thinking I would have to expand the necks of the .348 cartridges in order reform them in the .45-75 sizing die ..... but perhaps not.  If I can reform them to set the shoulder back adequately for the .45-75 chamber, then I would end up with a "two-step" neck, which might actually facilitate cartridge feeding .......   Hmmmmm .....

Short Knife:

Thank you for your tip - an ingenious idea!  At I began reading, I thought the cardboard roll bullet you were describing would form a dangerous projectile ..... but was pleased to hear that it didn't act in that fashion, so I am definitely going to have to try this!

What weight/type of cardboard did you use?

(I was also quite bemused by the number of folks who clearly didn't cotton onto your need for blanks that would feed through a lever action rifle, and kept recommending the florist foam! )

[Short Knife Johnson]

You are most welcome.  I am more than happy to help.

It seems to matter not which way the cardboard is rolled.  Just the same however, I roll it against the twist of the rifling.  You can actually watch the "bullet" unravel in front of the muzzle.  As the bore fouls you just get confetti. 

The material is sourced from soda pop can cases.  You should use Dr. Pepper because it might be more period correct - says right on the can "Since 1885".    I was able to stuff as many as 7 rounds into the tube.  I didn't do a torture test as these thing are pretty labour intensive.  That said, there was likely room for more.

The Mark I version contained an 1/8" wad of SPG to hopefully make the fouling soft... THAT makes for a dangerous projectile.  That Mark II version does not and was approved for use.  To date, I have fired 150 of these little darlings with nary a problem.  It even works in revolvers.  The best part is that it looks and sounds like the real thing - you even get the odd toriodal vortex (smoke ring).  It must generate just enough pressure that the primers don't stay backed out of the case without having to enlarge the flash holes.  I would recommend pistol primers.

And yes, it was rather painful that some of the posters didn't twig that I needed to feed this through a repeater.

[Short Knife Johnson]

You could leave the .348 cases untrimmed, but to get the good old lever action to feed, you have to make the cases to the proper length.  If the loaded blank is 2.255", the round in the magazine will still pile up on the round on the carrier.  My blanks have to be made to the proper length.   


Sadly though, due to recent cutbacks at Parks Canada, this is the last year for reenactments at Fort Battleford.  

Where is your event taking place?  Please post your results.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Short Knife:

I just came up from loading some .45-75 blanks following your method.  As expected, it took a bit of fiddling to get the ideal length of my cardboard strips calculated, but I now have 9 blanks loaded - may try to do a few more tomorrow, but ran out of suitable cardboard.  I'm letting the moisture wick up out of the "bullets" overnight before applying some beeswax.

The event I am involved with is the Third Annual Military Heritage Exhibition hosted at the local armoury by the South Alberta Light Horse.  The earliest unit officially perpetuated by the SALH is the original Rocky Mountain Rangers, two of the three Troops of which were posted to Medicine Hat ( .... the honour "North West Canada 1885" on the SALH Guidon derives from the RMR.)   I and another chap are appearing as Troopers of the RMR .... in fact, our local C.A.S. group is called "The Rocky Mountain Rangers, No. 4 Troop" and my alias is based on John M. 'Rattlesnake Jack' Robson, one of the three RMR Scouts.

As RMR Troopers, we will simply be "deploying in dismounted open order" and firing a number of rounds at imaginary "rebels".  Earlier that day, I am also appearing as a member of the "South Alberta Horse Artillery", an 1885 demonstration gun team, which has a small gun (about 6-pounder size) and limber - 



Until now, when they are available, we have used a team of horses owned by the Curator of Fort Whoop Up National Historic site in Lethbridge, which are trained for gun and cannon fire.   One of those horses is ill, apparently, but our group leader has been working diligently with his own team of horses and may have them ready for this weekend.  If not, we will simply "manhandle" the gun as we have done often enough - including this past Sunday at the Calgary Military Museums Heritage Day ......

[Short Knife Johnson]

That sounds like quite the event.  Hopefully one day I might be able to come and check it out.  I had read in other posts that your persona was a relation of yours.

I'm glad you have had some luck with my method.  And yes, it might be a good idea to let the cardboard dry some before application of the wax.  Judging by the time of your post, it was time for bed anyway.  I found that the key to good feeding was the taper on the strip rolled up to simulate an ogive.  A straight cut will work, but it is much more fiddly, and make sure the paper is rolled as tight as you can get it.

[RattlesnakeJack]

In addition to loading a supply of .45-75 cartridges using your method, I have also put up some .45 Colt rounds to try those as well.  ( I have a "faux NWMP carbine" built on a Model 1873 action and chambered in .45 Colt which another fellow will be using tomorrow.)

They look pretty good, and seem to feed through both rifles very nicely:



Again, many thanks for your idea and assistance!  I'll post a report on how things go!

[Short Knife Johnson]

It was my pleasure sir.  The end product looks just smashing, and as nerdy as it sounds I have to admit it made me smile as I scrolled your picture into view.  Best of luck on your event tomorrow and waiting for your report back.


Almost forgot...  Patent Pending... 

[RattlesnakeJack]

I am pleased to report that my blank rounds performed flawlessly in both the Model 1876 chambered in .45-75 and in the Model 1873 chambered in .45 Colt!  As you stated, any surviving cardboard strips uncoiled and landed harmlessly about 25 feet away.

(Unfortunately, I was so busy switching back and forth between my Rocky Mountain Ranger persona and my Artillery persona that my camera sat unused all day!  Hopefully, I can track down some pictures from somebody.)

[Short Knife Johnson]

Well good sir that just made my day... and it's only 0545 hrs. 

Wonderful to hear your work paid off.  Well I shouldn't dilly dally, just checked in to see how things worked out.  Off to Saskatoon for a CAS demo shoot.  Post some pictures if you find some.

[Grizzly Adams]

Great thread, guys!

[Short Knife Johnson]

Why thank you.  I am shocked this thing stayed on topic, had a beginning, suspenseful build-up in the middle, and a conclusion.  A happy one at that.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Why thank you.  I am shocked this thing stayed on topic, had a beginning, suspenseful build-up in the middle, and a conclusion.  A happy one at that.

So it did go well?  I have not had the opportunity to re-enact, but I will try to make some blanks to see how the process works.  How much powder in the .45-75?  Any fillers?

[RattlesnakeJack]

Sir Charles:

As reported above, my rounds worked extremely well.

I used the same black powder charge as I do when I load live rounds (.... can't recall offhand what it is .... not quite 75 grains, I think ....) - on the theory that it would maximize noise, as well as the "disintegration effect" on the fired "bullets".   I put a milk-carton disc over the powder to reduce migration of moisture from the damp, freshly-rolled "bullets" - but merely finger-seated them in the case mouths, then let them dry overnight before running them through my seating/crimping die to provide standard over-all cartridge length (and, incidentally, shaping the noses of the "bullets" a bit better.)

At the time I seated/crimped this batch, I suppose there may well have been some residual dampness at the bases of the bullets inside the case mouths, although the noses certainly seemed quite dry.  I was a bit constrained for time with this try, otherwise I think it would be best to let them dry out for several days longer before the seating/crimping stage .... or at least before doing the nose-dip in molten beeswax.

[Short Knife Johnson]

I've gone so far as to roll the "bullet" up wet, seat and crimp it right away then dip it in the wax as soon as the paper looked dry.  There has been little difference in terms of performance doing it any which way.  Some experimentation could be done, but it is my guess that rounds with a slightly damp core would be more prone to evaporate upon exiting the muzzle.  Dry paper would possibly unravel neatly.  Either way, ejecta is kept to a safe distance and a consistent behaviour.

My .44-40's get 32 grains of FFg - just enough to get the column up to the junction of the neck and shoulder.  I guess one could compress the powder but I don't know if that would make a difference in sound.  The trickled in powder gives a pretty convincing show.

[RattlesnakeJack]

My concern with seating and crimping a wet "bullet" is that one might be prone to squeeze water down into the powder charge.  I suppose a grease cookie sandwiched between two milk carton card wads would minimize that possibility .... but could also add a potential projectile to the mix ......

[Short Knife Johnson]

No, don't do the grease cookie.  They in fact DO make a dandy projectile.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Yes, I have found several of them from live rounds - still intact with the milk carton disk on either side and the grease squeezed partly out - a good 75 yards downrange!