Making 8mm Lebel Cases for Armi-Sport 56-50, PART I & II

[PvtGreg]

Well I've made 10 shells from 32 ga brass and 1 from 8mm Lebel brass.  Both shot just fine and I saw no issues with the 32 ga brass and using large pistol primers.  The Lebel brass uses rifle primers and is far far easier to form.  It takes me 2 hours to do 5 32 ga shells and about 10 min for a Lebel shell.  I got 50 Lebel shells for about $30, which isn't bad.  You have to fire form them though they will be a bit pinched in the middle and I couldn't run the re-sizer down the cartridge all the way.  BTW My press broke after the 1st Lebel cartridge, I've ordered a rock chucker as a replacement.

I've got everything zeroed in at 50 yrds, but am still having issues at 100yrds.  I can at least get them all on a 12in target face at 100.  I think the real issue is the sight picture you get from the sight.  Even after deepening the back sight groove it's still difficult to get a good sight picture.

Attached are the 50 and 100 yrd targets.  The load was 9gr of trail boss with a 330gr bullet, benched.





Pvt Greg

[Two Flints]

Pvt Greg,

How about some final photos of the 10 tube Blakeslee you made recently.  BTW, where's mine

And how about some photos of the 32 gauge brass shells, and 8mm Label Brass Shells used in your range report.

Thanks,

Two Flints

[PvtGreg]

Ok heres some before and after.

The first set:



Is the 32 ga brass.  like I said it takes a lot of time to form it.

The second set:



Is the Lebel brass.  Much easier to deal with.  

I use a pipe cutter to cut the brass and I have a jig, basically a 9/16th hole drilled through a block of wood the right length, to mark the shell I'm going to cut down to its correct OAL.

All the rest I do with my press and a dremel tool rigged as a lathe; the 32 ga grass needs about .03" taken down at the base.

For the Lebel brass I usually have to take a bit off the back (base) of the shell because the rim's thickness (not width) is a bit big (maybe .01"), but that only takes little effort with a piece of 220 grit sand paper and the primer still seats flush with the back.

Pvt Greg

[PvtGreg]

Lebel cases are good candidates for cutting down into 56-50 cases because their rim diameter and body are similar to the Armi-Sport 56-50 case.  As you can see from the chart below, this case is very close in dimension to the Armi-Sport 56-50 case.  

8mm Lebel Dimensions:

• Base diameter   0.54 in
• Rim diameter   0.63 in
• Case length   2.0 in
• Overall length   2.8 in

Armi-Sport 56-50 Dimensions (NOT the original 56-50 Spencer):

• Base diameter   0.56 in
• Rim diameter   0.63 in
• Case length   1.1 in
• Overall length   1.5 – 1.70 in (1.57 in works best for me.)

The following are instructions on how to do this.

What you will need:

• 8mm Lebel cases - http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/792? (not pictured)
• • I've also found some for sale on GunBroker.com, but the Grafs brass is very thick and looks like it will reload many many times.
• A good pliers (1)
• A pipe cutter.  (2)
• 
  
  • I suggest the following model: Superior Tool Co. Model # 350
    (http://www.amazon.com/General-Tools-120G-Tubing-Cutter/dp/B00004T7OG, but you can get them at any hardware store)
• A get a scratch awl or similar tool. (3)
• 
  
  • For scoring brass.
• 1/2 in dowel (4)
• 
  
  • for aid in sanding the rim thickness down.
• A sizing jig.  (5)
• 
  
  • Take a block of wood and cut it to a thickness of the cartridge OAL (1.10).  
  • Drill a hole with 1 9/16" drill bit through the block
• Calipers
• 
  
  • For checking the size of everything when needed. (6)
• 220 grit sand paper.  Optionally you can get some 440 grit (not pictured).
• 
  
  • For reducing the thickness of the Lebel rim and for polishing.
• A strong loading press.  (not pictured)
• 
  
  • I suggest a Rock Crusher from RCBS or like loader.
• Some Armi-Sport Spencer 56-50 loading dies.  (not pictured)
• 
  
  • Lyman makes a good set.  Make sure they are for the Armi-Sport.  56-50 Spencer Lyman #7460497.
• A 45-70 expander die (not pictured)
• Some good lube oil (not pictured)
• 
  
  • Balisol or like product.  Normal case lube not be heavy enough.

Sizing the Case

Step One:
Place the Lebel case into your sizing jig until the rim is against the face of the block.  


Step Two:
Use your scratch awl and scribe a nice deep line as flush with the face of the block as possible.


Step Three:
Get the pipe cutter and place the case in it making sure the cutting wheel sits the the grove you have just scribed.  


Step Four:
Tighten the pipe cutter until the case is firmly held DONT worry if the case looks like its in crooked.  Work the pipe cutter around the case a couple of turns to score a circle.  I usually get a sturdy pliers and clamp in on the thin neck of the case to hold it while I work the pipe cutter around.  You only want from the base up about 1.1" so the rest is throw away.  Tighten the pipe cutter up in increments until the cutter cuts the cartridge through.


Sometimes the discard piece and the cartridge body is thinly attached after you've cut through the case with the pipe cutter.  Just work the two back and forth until they separate.  You may want to smooth the rim with some sand paper to take out the jagged edges.




Step Five:
(Optional) Next I usually put the 45-70 expander die in the press and expand the just cut case with it.  Often its of to just go to the 56-50 expander die if you want, but I have found that some times the 56-50 die will fold the rim lip under, so I do a interim expand with the 45-70 die.  

Regardless you must expand the case with the 56-50 expander die.  Once you've expanded  the case it will look like this:

The case will look pinched when you're done, but that's just fine – when you fire form the cartridge it will expand to the dimensions of the Spencer's chamber.  

This is after expanding with the 56-50 expander die.


Below is after fire forming.


Step Six:
The last important step is to bring the thickness of the rim down a bit.  Take the 1/2 dowel and stick it in the case mouth.  


Get a sheet of sand paper and using the dowel to keep the bottom of the rim flat on the paper, work the case in a circle for about 3-4 min.  When I do it I usually sand it in 1-2 min intervals and then check how the case hits in my Spencer.  

12/27/2011 - concern has been raised about removing thickness from the back of the rim.  As an alternative you may wish to remove thickness from the front of the rim instead.  In either case make sure to inspect the rim of each case before you reload them.


Once you can close the lever smoothly and then eject the case smoothly, you're done reducing the case thickness and you can load the cartridge.  A large rifle primer will still seat just fine.

Step Seven (optional)
I suggest reaming out the case mouth a bit.  The rims are thick and I have had some issues chambering a loaded round because of the rim thickness.  As an alternative you may want to run the loaded case up the re-sizing die a ways with the primer punch pin assembly removed of course.

The Finish:
Once loaded the case will look like this:


Again it will look pinched the the middle, but will look normal once its fire formed.

Caveats:

• Don't expect good accuracy until they are fire formed
• I've had some issues loading these in that I had difficulty in seating and crimping the bullet.  Again I suspect this is because of the shape of the cartridge BEFORE fire forming.  The case I had fire formed loaded ok.
• 12-25-2011 -
  Make sure you ream out the converted 8mm Lebel brass case mouth.  If you don't you will have issues putting a roll crimp on the case and the bullet will likely pull out of the case when you run it up the seating die.  I don't have a case reamer, but a Dremel tool with the small diameter sanding drum will work well for this.

Please consider this a living document and I will add to it from time to time when I learn more gotchyas and hear from you all on how this is working for you.

[Herbert]

Putting in a order for 100 Lebel cases on monday morning,that will save me a lot of money

[Two Flints]

Pvt Greg,

Thanks so much for your thread and detailed post on 8mm Lebel Case Conversion

Perry Owens in this video:  suggests the use of this brass cutter: http://www.harborfreight.com/bench-top-cut-off-saw-42307.html available from Harbor Freight.  Maybe this cutter would speed up the cutting time of the Label Cases.  Just a thought.

Thanks again!

Two Flints

[Sean Thornton]

Gregg,
That looks fantastic, do they work well in your Spencer?  I am thinking I will try making some of these since I have plenty of 8mm Lebel.  Good job and thanks for the pictures and instructions.

[PvtGreg]

Sean,

They feed just fine.  I actually fired only one (press broke), but Friday night I did a feed test with 7 done with my new press before fire forming and they all cycled fine, so I expect they will do better after fire forming. 

My Spencer is VERY finicky (as you saw when we meet up at Franklin) and only likes between 1.55" & 1.575" OAL, so I expect others will have success with this stuff too.

BTW to all considering Lebel brass, get a good press.  I got an old RCBS Rock Chucker on eBay for $70 and I LOVE it for brass reforming.  I had an old RCBS single stage press, but it obviously wasn't tough enough and didn't have as much leverage as the Chucker.

I've had good success with 32 ga brass too.  I'm working on that post this week.  It would be really nice to be free from Starline production run uncertainties.  Its cheaper too, if you don't count labor!!

Respects

[Herbert]

You will never regret geting that rock chucker press,I defintly have to get away from the Starline brass as they will no longer send it to Australia and the local 50-70 brass is $3. 50 a peice I can get Lebel brass for $75 a hundred.Thank you for the tip

[Herbert]

With the 32 ga cases it seem to me you might be able to get more powder in the case,is this so,also what extra trouble did you have forming the 32ga brass into 56-50.I was thinking that if you can get more powder in the 32ga cases these would be the go for a pig hunting load,I have modifyed my AP Spencer so it will take a longer cartridge OAL if you E-mail me your adress I can send you the two parts to copy(this defintly improves feeding and only involves a bit of filling of the the original extractor and cam in your Spencer)this fix alows you to youse a longer bullet wich defitantly improves acuracy at longer distances, and as you can work a computer you may be able to share this fix with the rest of the members

[PvtGreg]

Brother Herbert your are right.

Fire formed Lebel cases hold 13.3 grains of trail boss.  32ga. Brass holds 14.5 grains.

I am interested in your plans for allowing a longer cartridge, i will contact you via email if thats ok.

Also I've made some edits to my original post given some issues I've discovered tonight when loading my Lebel brass.  All who are interested please re-read the post - I've added a Caveats section where I will be posting issues and solutions too as we all get more experience with these cases.

Pvt Greg

[Herbert]

Could you E-Mail me yor mailing adress in the next 10 hours as I only go to town 1 or 2 times a month and tomorow is the day

[PvtGreg]

Brother Herbert,

Your email is marked as hidden.  Mine is available so if you could email me your email then I can send my address.

Thanks!

Pvt Greg

[PvtGreg]

Data added to this document - Please see the top post

[Two Flints]

Pvt Greg,  Would you please mark off the new information you posted in some way - underline, bold, italics, etc. so I can read what you added

Thanks,

Two Flints

[PvtGreg]

Two Flints - its the section in red

[Two Flints]

Hi Pvt Greg,

Thanks for the color reference, but my screen doesn't show the red at all.  Could you just place a double star at where it begins and ends?

Two Flints

[PvtGreg]

Hi Two Flints - see the entry tagged with 12-25-2011.

I'll date each future update with the day I modify the post.

Thanks!

[Perry Owens]

If I understand your instructions correctly you are reducing case rim thickness by removing metal from the back of the rim. I always thought that this is a potentially dangerous practice because it reduces the depth of the primer pocket, increasing the risk of a proud primer firing when you close the breech. I reduce rim thickness by chucking the case in a lathe and turning metal off the front of the rim. It can also be done using a bench drill and small file if you don't have a lathe.
Perry Owens

[PvtGreg]

I've not had any issues yet Perry - the amount to be reduced was tiny, but your point is well taken and will be added as a warning to the instructions.  

I've done about three reloads on some of the converted cartridges.  The Lebel case rims are very thick, so I think this ameliorates the issue some what.

Thanks A LOT for the input & keep it coming.