Bullet weight for handgun and rifle ?

[Marshal Deadwood]

Would a 200 gr flat nose be desirable for the 44WCF rifle as well as your handgun ? Larger gr bullet for the WCF than the revolver ? Larger for both ?  I was looking at the 200 gr bullet mold for my .44 handgun loads and was hoping it was also a good stable bullet weight for the .44cal rifle rounds since I'm really on the verge of ordering a '73Win  , 44WCF .

Thank you

MD

[The Pathfinder]

At our shooting distances it should be perfect. That's what most of the original loadings were anywho. Ideal 42798 weighs out at 205 from my mold and its supposed to match the original Winchester bullet.

[Deadeye Dick]

If you are shooting black powder try the 44 Mav Dutchman, 200 gr, Big Lube Bullet. It works great in my 73 Winchester and my handguns. You don't need anything else. I would think 200 gr 44 cal bullets for smokeyless powder would work well too.
Deadeye Dick

[Marshal Deadwood]

Deadeye, does Dick Dastardly still post on CAS ? Havent seen him post in ages. I'd sure consider a Big Lube bullet for sure.

Thanks
MD

[Deadeye Dick]

MD,
Dick Dastardly still posts on CAS, he's usually on the Darksider's Den. He doesn't sell Big Lube Bullets, just the moulds for them. Springfield Slim, aka Mark Whyte of Whyte leather, among others, sells the bullets.
His website is:    http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/index.html
I buy my bullets from Springfield Slim and find his prices and customer service very good.
Deadeye Dick

[Montana Slim]

I cast my MAV's for personal use. Highly recommend this bulelt for CAS & general use, if you favor traditional BP loads.

I size .430 for my .44 Russian revolvers (S&W, O-T, & R-Ms) and .428 for my .44-40 rifles & revolver.

Slim

[Mako]

Marshall Deadwood,
That Mav Dutchman is the ideal bullet for any .44 caliber cartridge in CAS shooting.  Unless you have an original Winchester your rifling and more importantly your chamber is probably right for a Ø.429 bullet for your rifle as well as your pistols.  I don't know of any current manufacturer that uses the old Ø.427 bullet as the basis for their rifling or chamber sizes.  Winchester(Browning/Miroku) was making the '92 again in .44-40, but I have no idea which bullet it was designed for.

You will probably have more issues with chamber size at the neck than the bore size.  I have found the current Remington cases are too thick at the mouth to use a Ø.429 bullet with with my reproductions.  On my original Winchester '73 made in 1886 the modern Remington brass will work although they are a bit tight using a Ø.427 bullet.  I find the Winchester brass works best for the old '73 and it has a very pristine chamber.  I use Starline for my Uberti '73, '66 and Henry in .44-40 with Ø.429 bullets.  I can use Winchester as well but it is a bit tighter (I can't use Remington .44-40 brass in my Ubertis rifles, the necks are too thick).

You can easily check the chamber mouths of your revolvers using gage pins or even bullets of known diameter.  A Ø.430 or larger exit diameter is pretty common with the current revolvers.  This goes for .44 Russian, Special and Magnum as well.  The SAAMI nominal specification for a .44Spl or .44Mag chamber diameter in the throat of the cylinder is Ø.4325 and a case mouth diameter of Ø.4565. The chamber mouth diameter is Ø.4580.

SAAMI lists the .44-40 as a rifle round which has a bit different specs for the chamber than than revolver cylinder because the throat leads directly to the bore groove diameter instead of a free bore throat leading to the cylinder face.  But the chamber diameter at the mouth is Ø.4436 which is a full .0144" smaller in diameter than the "modern" or straight wall .44's (i.e. .44spl, 44mag, etc).  The Case mouth is Ø.4430 on the SAAMI print, because of the number of original Winchesters still out they use the traditional Ø.427 bullet as their basis for chamber and cartridge dimensions. You can extrapolate the case mouth thickness by taking half of the difference between the case O.D. and the bullet diameter, the result is .0083".  

The .44 Spl, and Mag. walls are .013" thick based on a average bullet diameter of Ø.4305 (SAAMI lists the modern .44 caliber bullet diameters as Ø.4320^-.003.  The mouth wall thicknesses are where you find the differences in the brass of the Remington, Winchester and Starline cases with the .44WCF brass. I don't see that variation with the "straight walled" cases. You need .0015 to .0020" of clearance between the loaded case and the chamber mouth diameter to have a reliable fit.  If it is tighter you will sometimes have it jam.

The only way to really know how your rifle chambers are cut to is either use a head space gage or do a chamber casting.  Some rimmed cartridge head space gauges ignore the shoulders and case necks so you have to have one that specifically is a shoulder and neck gage.

If you have some bullets in both Ø.427 and Ø.429 you can get yourself the three brands of brass and make yourself some dummy rounds.  Be sure not to prime or put powder in them and you can see if they chamber in your rifle. If you have a modern Uberti you can probably just start with Ø.429 and Winchester brass (or Starline if you are going to exclusively use it).  The Winchester brass is slightly thicker than Starline and if it works the Starline will too.  Seat a Ø.429 Mav Dutchman and then try it in the chamber.  Don't run it through the action, simply feed it into the chamber from the top of the receiver.  The cartridge should fully seat.  If it does, then you have your answer.  If it doesn't then you have to try a Ø.427 bullet.

One last word, I measured all of my Uberti revolvers (conversions and Open Tops) and the chamber mouths ran tighter than I expected, but a Ø.429 still works great.  Here's the link to those measurements:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,36190.msg463233.html#msg463233

I hope I haven't confused you, if I have I can make a table to help for the case dims or even show you the SAAMI drawings.

~Mako

[Hoof Hearted]

Marshall Deadwood,
That Mav Dutchman is the ideal bullet for any .44 caliber cartridge in CAS shooting.  Unless you have an original Winchester your rifling and more importantly your chamber is probably right for a Ø.429 bullet for your rifle as well as your pistols.  I don't know of any current manufacturer that uses the old Ø.427 bullet as the basis for their rifling or chamber sizes.  Winchester(Browning/Miroku) was making the '92 again in .44-40, but I have no idea which bullet it was designed for.

You will probably have more issues with chamber size at the neck than the bore size.  I have found the current Remington cases are too thick at the mouth to use a Ø.429 bullet with with my reproductions.  The Remington brass will work although they are a bit tight using a Ø.427 bullet for my original '73 made in 1886.  I find the Winchester brass works best for the old '73 and it has a very pristine chamber.  I use Starline for my Uberti '73, '66 and Henry in .44-40 with Ø.429 bullets.  I can use Winchester as well but it is a bit tighter.

You can easily check the chamber mouths of your revolvers using gage pins or even bullets of known diameter.  A Ø.430 or larger exit diameter is pretty common with the current revolvers.  This goes for .44 Russian, Special and Magnum as well.  The SAAMI nominal specification for a .44Spl or .44Mag chamber diameter in the throat of the cylinder is Ø.4325 and a case mouth diameter of Ø.4565. The chamber mouth diameter is Ø.4580.

SAAMI lists the .44-40 as a rifle round which has a bit different specs for the chamber than than revolver cylinder because the throat leads directly to the bore groove diameter instead of a free bore throat leading to the cylinder face.  But the chamber diameter at the mouth is Ø.4436 which is a full .0144" smaller in diameter than the "modern" .44's.  The Case mouth is Ø.4430 on the SAAMI print, because of the number of original Winchesters still out they use the traditional Ø.427 bullet as their basis for chamber and cartridge dimensions. You can extrapolate the case mouth thickness by taking half of the difference between the case O.D. and the bullet diameter, the result is .0083".  

The .44 Spl, and Mag. walls are .013" thick based on a average bullet diameter of Ø.4305 (SAAMI lists the modern .44 caliber bullet diameters as Ø.4320^-.003.  The mouth wall thicknesses are where you find the differences in the brass of the Remington, Winchester and Starline cases with the .44WCF brass. I don't see that variation with the "straight walled" cases. You need .0015 to .0020" of clearance between the loaded case and the chamber mouth diameter to have a reliable fit.  If it is tighter you will sometimes have it jam.

The only way to really know how your rifle chambers are cut to is either use a head space gage or do a chamber casting.  Some rimmed cartridge head space gauges ignore the shoulders and case necks so you have to have one that specifically is a shoulder and neck gage.

If you have some bullets in both Ø.427 and Ø.429 you can get yourself the three brands of brass and make yourself some dummy rounds.  Be sure not to prime or put powder in them and you can see if they chamber in your rifle. If you have a modern Uberti you can probably just start with Ø.429 and Winchester brass (or Starline if you are going to exclusively use it).  The Winchester brass is slightly thicker than Starline and if it works the Starline will too.  Seat a Ø.429 Mav Dutchman and then try it in the chamber.  Don't run it through the action, simply feed it into the chamber from the top of the receiver.  The cartridge should fully seat.  If it does, then you have your answer.  If it doesn't then you have to try a Ø.427 bullet.

One last word, I measured all of my Uberti revolvers (conversions and Open Tops) and the chamber mouths ran tighter than I expected, but a Ø.429 still works great.  Here's the link to those measurements:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,36190.msg463233.html#msg463233

I hope I haven't confused you, if I have I can make a table to help for the case dims or even show you the SAAMI drawings.

~Mako

Remington or Winchester

[Mako]

Remington or Winchester

Hoof,
Remington or Winchester what?  I have no idea what you are asking.
~Mako

[Marshal Deadwood]

Thanks for the information, Mako, I appreciate it.

MD

[MMA10mm]

Would a 200 gr flat nose be desirable for the 44WCF rifle as well as your handgun ? Larger gr bullet for the WCF than the revolver ? Larger for both ?  I was looking at the 200 gr bullet mold for my .44 handgun loads and was hoping it was also a good stable bullet weight for the .44cal rifle rounds since I'm really on the verge of ordering a '73Win  , 44WCF .

Thank you

MD

Another thing to consider is that the beauty of the smaller cartridges of the old west is that they worked in rifles and pistols interchangeable, so if you went to a heavy bullet for the sake of the rifle, it would be too heavy for the pistol.  How so?  Well, before I got my MAV Dutchman Big Lube boolit mould, I tried using 250gr Keith SWCs, from a mould I already had.  They shot fine in my EMF SAA, but they shot way high, even at CAS ranges.  I didn't have a 44-40 rifle to try them in, but I also wonder if the twist in the rifle/carbines in 44-40 would even stabilize the heavier bullets?  The 44-40, after all, was designed around a 200gr bullet.

[Montana Slim]

BTW, I size .428 for 44-40. This chambers using all types of brass in my rifles and revolver, too.

For all my other .44's (Magnum, Russian, Colt, etc.) I size to .430.

Slim