Spencer Model 1890 Repeating Shotgun *** Photos Added ***

JoeReb · February 05, 2011, 07:21:35 PM

Howdy to everyone,

It's been awhile since my last post. Since then, I've aquired a Model 1890 Spencer/Bannerman 12 Gauge repeating shotgun. It is in great shape and has a beautiful damascus barrel. I know everyone says not to shoot damascus barreled shotguns but, I am thinking about taking it to a gunsmith and having the barrel "proofed." My question is does anyone have any experiance with this firearm, and has anyone found reliable blackpowder shotshells? I believe it is chambered for the 2 5/8 shot shell.

(Photos added by Two Flints)
Thanks,
Joe Reb

Two Flints · February 05, 2011, 08:53:57 PM

Hi Joe Reb,

The Spencer shotguns were made to shoot 2 5/8" shells. The Republic Metallic Cartridge Company (of Maine) is very accomodating and will make these sized shells for you with black powder. http://www.republicmetallic.com The first shells they made for me were with:

Express shot 12 gauge, 2 1/2 #7 1/2 shot with 3 drams of Shuetzen black powder with 1 1/8 oz lead shot; plastic or paper hulls, your choice.

One of my two Spencer shotguns had serious problems; it was a cheapo purchase, and one of our SSS members (and also our resident expert on the Spencer Shotgun) replaced the firing pin for me and shortened the barrel for better deep woods shooting.

They can be best identified by the pump handle. See page 291 in the Marcot book. Does yours have the Bannerman name on one side of the receiver?

Email me or PM me if you have any questions. Also, see this link: http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,5203.0.html

Two Flints

Jobe Holiday · February 05, 2011, 11:06:41 PM

The problem with "Proofing" a thin damascus barrel is that if your arm suffers a catastrophic failure you are left with a pile of junk. I would be very surprised if any licensed gunsmith would put his insurance on the line by certifying a damascus shotgun as safe to shoot.

When I was a kid I used to hunt rabbits with an original double 10 ga. muzzle loader. It was a nice clean, solid, double. A local gun builder unbreached it and polished the barrels for me. At the time he had the breech plugs out he said the tubes looked quite good. During the second year of use the left barrel fractured one inch forward of the breech plug. I am ever thankful that it didn't let go completely. It's been retired and resting in a corner for the past 45 years.

Just my 2 cents.

JH

El Supremo · February 06, 2011, 07:25:33 AM

Hello:
JH is correct on the proof liability aspect. Also, because the metallurgy of damascus contains weaknesses that can increase with age, a "proofed" damascus tube may burst on the next shot!

Also worth considering is the fact that trying to duplicate a traditional blackpowder shotshell load using smokeless will produce approximately. DOUBLE the pressure!

Making the risks greater is the corrosive nature of traditional blackpowder and at least one widely used "substitute ". The corrosive byproducts are hidden under any leading and must be completely removed or the corrosion continues.

I realize that some still shoot damascus tubes, but those I know that do are very mindful of the risks.

Unless you are one of those that ignore well meant advice, please don't practice something you can only do wrong ONCE.

VERY RESPECTFULLY,

El Supremo

JoeReb · February 06, 2011, 09:25:32 AM

Two Flints,

It is a Bannerman Model 1890 with "SPENCER RPTG.SHOT GUN APL. PAT. 1882", stamped on the barrel. I will own 'The real thing " one day when I can locate one in good condition.

Thanks gentlemen for everyones response. I am thinking that its probably not a good idea to shoot the gun, but it is so tempting and peope have done it with success providing that you have the "correct" low pressure loads. But you never know which round will be the last! Even though it seems in perfect working order. I understand the proofing though. I would not want to risk it either. Two FLints is right on the loads according to the references I have read. However, I would hate to risk injury just because I wanted to shoot it, AND ruin such a beautiful piece of history.

I will send Two FLints some pics if he would be so kind as to post them for me?

Thanks,
Joe Reb, GGGG Granson, Capt. Bejamin Spencer,CSA, CO, 44th Tennessee

Two Flints · February 06, 2011, 10:26:22 AM

Joe Reb,

Send them to me at fsgrand2@fairpoint.net. Nice sharp photos of the receiver area especially and the barrel and stock.

Two Flints

JimBob · February 06, 2011, 11:24:35 AM

The major problem in trying to determine shootability of damascus barrels is what you can't see,rust in the weld joints,and the degree to which it has degraded the integrity of the welds.They may withstand a proof load and give way with the next shot fired.

Arizona Trooper · February 06, 2011, 05:01:36 PM

How about sleeving it? It wouldn't take a lot of sleeve to make the barrel far stronger.

If you come into another Spencer pump, I've been sort of looking for one for years. Haven't stumbled into the right deal yet.

Herbert · February 07, 2011, 12:28:19 AM

Were all Bannaman/spencer shotguns fitted with damascus barrels,I have seen one for sale that stated the barrel was acid etched damascus barrel ,was this a wrong description

JoeReb · February 07, 2011, 02:13:46 PM

Arizona Trooper, Herbert,

As far as I know, all Spencer shotguns were fitted with damascus type barrels. According to Marcot, you had three choices or "grades." Grade A; came with a "fine Italian walnut stock, pistol grip, Turkish Damascus steel barrel, extra engraved." The Grade B; came with "Fancy English walnut stock, pistol grip, Damascus steel barrel, engraved", and a Grade C; came with "English walnut stock, pistol grip, and a laminated barrel." I'm not sure whether the "laminated steel " barrel was Damascus made or not?

If you look on Auction Arms.com as of yesterday, there was a nice old Spencer shotgun (not Bannerman) for sale no reserve. You better beat me to it!

It has the hard plastic slide handle not wood (I asked). I'm looking for the wooden slide actually.

Thanks to Two Flints for posting the pics, do you want to see more? if so I'll be glad to send them to ya?

Thanks Gents,

Joe Reb

Herbert · February 07, 2011, 02:27:56 PM

Joe reb:That was all the imformation I could find on the barrels also ,but i have seen one that defintly was not damascus(it was allso british proofed for nitro,so may have been a replacment barrel,but it had the Bannaman mark on the barrel)

Two Flints · February 07, 2011, 04:24:14 PM

JoeReb,

Here is another link for you -

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,17394.msg221373.html#msg221373

If you have a few more photos, I'll add them with the other two I posted for you.

Do a search on SSS - just type in Spencer Shotgun

Two Flints

Gunner · May 20, 2011, 12:50:11 AM

For what its worth, stay far away from "laminated" barrels for shooting. They are generally a lower grade and not nearly as safe as a damascus barrel.
Just my humble opinion - unsolicited.
The ideal would be to have a talented gunsmith turn down a 12 ga barrel blank (modern steel) and have it installed.
No, I don't know anyone to do it, but how I wish......

Regards.