duplicating .44 Henry RF

[hhughh]

Posted this in the Shooters' Meeting, but got told this might be a better place.

Howdy, all.
   Considering all the modern repro Henrys and 66s--44 Spl, 44 wcf, 45 LC, etc.--does any of these lend itself to "loading down" to give the general experience of the old 44RF round?  If so, what would be that type of loading?  If not, what would be a "this is really close" cartridge/loading?

Just kinda curious, but thanks.

Hugh

[Pettifogger]

The Henry round varied through the years, but it was roughly a 200 grain bullet with 28 grains of BP.  Any of the cartridges listed can be loaded "down" to Henry levels.  In fact, most people shooting CAS events shoot rounds loaded to well below the original Henry's ballistics.

[Joe Lansing]

    For physical appearance, go with the 44 Russian. It will give the same magazine capacity as 44 RF and with smokeless, duplicate the ballistics.
   If you're married to Holy Black, you'll be better off with 44 SPL. It's a matter of case capacity.

                                                        J.L.

[buckskin billy]

for a 45 colt henry you can load 45 scholfield with a 200 grain bullet and around 28 grains of black powder and come close to the original ballistics.
also your henry when loaded with 45 scholfield will hold  15 in the magazine. just make sure of your overall bullet length,cuz if you seat the bullet just a hair to low in the case you'll have problems

[stepnmud]

All the previous replies are correct. Since I already had a Henry in 44WCF., I elected to have the chamber converted to 44spl/44russian and installed a set screw for a cartridge stop in the carrier on the driver's side for 44 Russian rounds with 200gr. RNFP with FF blackpowder slightly less than 18 grs. so can load the shorty rounds in the tube magazine to match original Henry caliber or close to it.
At CAS matchs I wear a cartridge belt with 30 rounds of 44 Russian and also load guns from the belt at the loading table. Get lots of comments on the funny looking short 44R., but also get almost all my empty brass back from folks who seem to like making sure I do. If you was to buy a Henry and wanted closest to the original blackpowder 28 grs.powder/200 gr.bullet, then the 45 Schofield will do nicely without modifing the rifle.

[Long Johns Wolf]

+ 1. Alternatively take a Henry in .44 Special and load .44 Colt with BP and 200 grainers. You can load 15 in the tube as well. Little if any work is needed on the carrier in terms of cartridge stop.
Long Johns Wolf

[Montana Slim]

All of the above is good info..here's my spin..

Using smokeless propellants, any of those cartridges can be loaded down (or, up in the case of typical CAS loads ) to match the ballistics of the original 44 Henry round.

To duplicate the look and ballistics using genuiine gunpowder, a straight-sided cartridge, 200 grain bullet and approximately 26-28 grains of powder are needed. The 44 Colt / Special would be best suited for this. Closely followed by the 44 Russian. Using wads or fillers the 44-40 and 45 Colt can work, too.

My Improved Henrys are both 44-40. I use 31 grains of 2F and get similar ballistics to the Henry cartridge, but have the advantage of a good seal & reduced (zero) fouling back into the carrier.

Regards,
Slim

[hhughh]

If you was to buy a Henry and wanted closest to the original blackpowder 28 grs.powder/200 gr.bullet, then the 45 Schofield will do nicely without modifing the rifle.

That's pretty much what I was curious about.  Just so I'm clear, an "off the shelf" Henry .45LC, fed with some .45 Schofiled BP loads from Buffalo Arms, would be pretty close ball park?

Thanks for all the replies and info.

Hugh

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

My standard 45 Schofield load is a 200 grain J/P 45-200 Big Lube bullet in front of 1.9CC of FFg. Depending on the brand of FFg this is around 26-28 grains. This load will closely duplicate the 44 Henry rimfire round's ballistics. If your 45 Colt rifle will feed 45 Schofiled rounds, this will be a good duplication.

I don't own any rifles chambered for 45 Colt, all mine are 44-40. But I shoot those Schofield loads in my pistols all the time. I understand most 45 Colt toggle link rifles will feed 45 Schofield rounds today. Older guns had problems with shorter rounds. Of course, your mileage may vary.

Personally, I am happy shooting BP 44-40 loads through my Henry. I was never interested in downloading it. It will still hold about 13 rounds in the magazine, if I recall correctly. Seldom have an opportunity to load more than ten in CAS anyway.

[hhughh]

Maybe I should have referred to this earlier.  My apologies.  Was not that concerned with the number in the magazine.  I shot cas for a while, but my work schedule and other "life issues" severely slowed me down.  The thing that interests me about the "old guns" the most now is experiencing "how it was".  I bought a Lyman Great Plains Rifle kit in .54 cal some years back.  Tweaked it a bit differently than an off the shelf model.  I learned that Jim Bridger's Hawken was a .53 cal, and his "full load" was a 102 grns BP.  I load that .54 with a PRB ahead of 100 grns BP, and feel like Ol' Grizz is looking over my shoulder when I touch her off.

Most of the guns I've purchased have some similar style of "connection".  Now I'm looking at Henry's Rifle, and was curious what I should be in the market for to "get that feeling" when I squeeze the trigger.  Looks like I'll be searching for one in .45 LC and some Schofield loads eventually.

Thanks again to all.

Hugh

[stepnmud]

It's all good. I also have interest in historical aspect of the Henry and after shooting my henry for several years in the 44WCF, I started wanting to use the 44R. and knew from experimenting with lighter blackpowder loads than the 32 to 34 grs. and still using 200 gr. bullets, I found I could still tag steel targets at a 100 yards if I held sights at the top of targets. That and I like to have things just a little different than others. Finally I rationalized the cost to modify the Henry with the 44 Russian brass by being several cents cheaper to buy and with blackpowder loads I can get 400 rounds per lb. compared to 200 rounds per lb. with 44WCF loads, so in 49 years and shooting 4000 rounds per year, I'll be back to square one. Plus I can load 16 rounds in the magazine if the spirt moves me just right.

Good Luck to ya with the purchase of a Henry. 

[Montana Slim]

That's pretty much what I was curious about.  Just so I'm clear, an "off the shelf" Henry .45LC, fed with some .45 Schofiled BP loads from Buffalo Arms, would be pretty close ball park?

Thanks for all the replies and info.

Hugh

Works ok....but, there is one more factor. The original Henry bullet diameter would be around .426, making the 44-40 (.428 diameter) closest of the bunch, .44 Colt/Special/Russian (.430) next closest & .45 Colt/Schofield (.452) in the rear.

It's a compromise anyway you cut it. If your planning to shoot BP, I highly recommend 44-40 

Regards,
Slim

[FriscoCounty]

Works ok....but, there is one more factor. The original Henry bullet diameter would be around .426, making the 44-40 (.428 diameter) closest of the bunch, .44 Colt/Special/Russian (.430) next closest & .45 Colt/Schofield (.452) in the rear.

It's a compromise anyway you cut it. If your planning to shoot BP, I highly recommend 44-40 

Regards,
Slim

No, the .44 Henry was a real .44.  The .44 Colt was closer to a .45 as it was designed to be used in .44 Colt conversions that had bore diameters of .44.  The .45 Colt was designated by the groove diameter, not the bore. 

[Dusty Morningwood]

even though I only get 20 gr FFG by volume in my .44 Russian cases, they "look" very close to an original .44 Henry in general size and appearance.   Well, it works good enough for me anyway.

[Montana Slim]

No, the .44 Henry was a real .44.  The .44 Colt was closer to a .45 as it was designed to be used in .44 Colt conversions that had bore diameters of .44.  The .45 Colt was designated by the groove diameter, not the bore. 

Well, I am well aware the design of the original 44 Colt cartridge...I was referring to the use of modern 44 Colt Cartridge (assuming converison of a modern .44 caliber Uberti Rifle). Others may not know & so this adds good information to educate. ...As far as the .44 Henry bullet diameter...you may be correct...I work most of this from memory & I'm not growingany new brain cells.

...But , I'll stand by this one: "It's a compromise anyway you cut it. If your planning to shoot BP, I highly recommend 44-40 

Regards,
Slim

[Pettifogger]

No, the .44 Henry was a real .44.  The .44 Colt was closer to a .45 as it was designed to be used in .44 Colt conversions that had bore diameters of .44.  The .45 Colt was designated by the groove diameter, not the bore. 

Not sure what you mean by a "real" .44, but the .44 Henry rounds I have look like giant .22 shorts.  They used healed bullets and the part sticking out of the case averages .432".  They were pure lead and expanded or squashed down to fit bores that varied in size by quite a bit.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I have an original 44 Henry Rimfire round in my hand right now. Yes, it has a heeled bullet, the bullet is the same diameter as the case. However the actual driving band of the bullet, the part that would engage the rifling, is right about .440 in diameter. Just ahead of the driving band is a lube groove that would contain the lube, since it was a heeled bullet. The lube is pretty much all gone by now on this bullet. Ahead of the lube groove, before the ogive takes over, the bullet narrows down to about .429 in diameter.

Here is a photo. The 44 Henry round is the copper cased round on the left. If you look carefully you can see that .440 driving band peeking out below the lube groove. The two rounds in the center are a couple of old 44 Colt rounds. The interesting thing is they are not the same length. The longer one is a WRA round, the brass is about 1.125 long. The shorter one is a UMC round. The brass is about 1.080 long. Both rounds have a heeled bullet, they are both around .448-.450 in diameter. The round on the right is an old WRA 45 Colt round for comparison. This is an old 45 Colt round from when the bullet diameter was around .454, before the present .452 spec. Note how tiny the center fire rims are. Note how fat the 44 rimfire rim is. Had to be fat to be folded over to hold the priming.

[stepnmud]

Good thing is, we got these Uberti Henrys to to shoot with. and with common ammunition!

I like the center fire brass Russian cases alot, but sometimes think or wish we could have a softer case, more like copper. Just for fun.

[FriscoCounty]

Well, I am well aware the design of the original 44 Colt cartridge...I was referring to the use of modern 44 Colt Cartridge (assuming converison of a modern .44 caliber Uberti Rifle). Others may not know & so this adds good information to educate. ...As far as the .44 Henry bullet diameter...you may be correct...I work most of this from memory & I'm not growingany new brain cells.

...But , I'll stand by this one: "It's a compromise anyway you cut it. If your planning to shoot BP, I highly recommend 44-40 

Regards,
Slim

As Driftwood stated, the driving band of a .44 Henry was .44. 

It is a problem discussing the .44 Colt and most of the old cartridges, but particularly those that were originally heeled,  as their dimensions have changed over the years.  Also adding to modern confusion is changes in bullet and case design.  Fortunately there are people, like Driftwood, with original cartridges and guns in their collection who set us straight on how it really was in the old west.  Sorry about getting a little pedantic on that point. 

You are right any period centerfire cartridge of a nominal .44 caliber (.427 - .452 diameter bullet) that can be loaded with 23 - 28 grains of BP and will chamber in your Henry/1866 will make an excellent substitute for the original Henry RF cartridge.   Although, much as I like the .44-40 cartridge, I think is just too powerful to make an realistic substitute.  That said, I have a Henry in .44-40 that I love to shoot and am very loathe to spend to convert it to .44 Russian, .44 Colt, or .44 Special to be 'more realistic'. (Yeah I know the .44 Special ain't period, but it will hold 28 grains of FFFg.  Where the modern .44 Russian and .44 Colt hold closer to 23 gr.)

[stepnmud]

I'd have to read it before, but someone had posted that the original Henry rifle had a gain twist bore, starting out slow and got faster towards the muzzle. After comparing my Uberti to an original Henry at 'Collector's Firearms', They were identical except for some small details, with center fire bolt firing pin and slightly longer brass frame from the outside appearance. The bore showed the slow to faster twist gain on the original Henry. Seems like the gun makers at the time were using methods of muzzle loading rifles at that time and carried over into the brand new Henrys when manufacturing the barrels.

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