homemade blanks?

[Short Knife Johnson]

Hey all.

This week I got myself talked into helping out at a local historical recreation on the 14th of August.  The 1885 seige of Fort Battleford.  The guy I know there was in desparate need of volunteers with a working knowledge of guns and shooting to partake in a mock firefight that ensued when the fort's occupants made a break for water to the river.  The big idea to cross my mind was to take my '73 Winnie, my Whitney-Kennedy, and my New Model Russian (if it shows up in time). 

I know this is a long shot, but would anyone know how to make .44-40 blanks from cartiridges that will function in a repeater?  He told me they will supply the powder and primers if I can come up with something that will please their armourer.  Otherwise I'll just use one of the Fort's single shots - most likely a Snyder or Trapdoor and let them clean the mess.  

If I could just find a box of movie blanks, that would be good, but not an option on this short of a notice.

[Sgt Scott]

Hey pard,
I have a 94 Marlin in .357 and a friend of mine barrowed it for something similar. We typically do Civil War reenactments and he tried this out. Put about 24 grains of black powder then fill with cream of wheat. Pack this down in your reloading press and it should work. At least it did in mine. I also shoot a spencer in .44 with a star crimp on the cartridge. You might need that for the '73 Winchester. But if you don't have it, you might try just the open cartridges.

Good luck,
Sgt Scott

[Short Knife Johnson]

Neither action will feed a cartridge onto the carrier.  You wind up with 1 1/3 cartridges stuck in the action..  Already tried that.    Had to use my house keys to hee-haw the resulting mess loose. 

The thought just struck me to try a tin foil ball packed with tumbling media to make up some space.  Just need something to keep the proper OAL, but something that will distintegrate within 25 feet.

Hmmm... thinking... thinking... 

[Arizona Trooper]

S&S Firearms usually has 5-in-1 blanks which ought to work. Another thing to try would be Marlin 444 brass, which is a very long 44 special case. Cut to 44-40 length with a good heavy roll crimp, they might feed OK. There were a couple guys using Whitney-Kennedy 44s in the movie Tombstone, so somebody figured out how to make them feed blanks.   

[Montana Slim]

Try Gates 455 super-mag works for 44-40 rifles...If memory serves.

If you try searching for "blanks", I'm sure you'll find more detail.

Regards,
SLim

[Short Knife Johnson]

I actually have 4 5-in-1 blanks... only 4 though.  You can't conduct a respectable firefight with 4 rounds  , and shootin' commences in 6 days.  Good to know for next year though.

I have a bag of .444 Marlin, but that is slated for use in a .410... you know... it's a "one of these days" type situation.  Not overly willing to sacrifice them at present. 

Assumption is made that Montana Slim meant .445 Super Mag brass.  I DO have a friend who has one of those, but would have a better chance of convincing him to join the Hare Krishnas than weasel that brass away from hm.

However, all is not lost just yet.  A Eureka Moment occurred last night.  Let me know what you guys think.  A case charged with powder (29 grains or so) drop tubed in place.  Card wad from beer or soda case, SPG grease cookie with another card wad.  A tightly wrapped plug made of cardboard from beer or soda case with a bit of a taper from one end to the middle of the strip to simulate an ogive.  It must be wrapped in the direction of the rifling so it doesn't come apart in the bore.  Seal the front end up with beeswax as a binding agent, and lube the shank with SPG.  My prototype is promising, and I'm hoping the plug should unravel the instant it leaves the muzzle. 

Can anyone find any flaws in that?  If anyone needs me, I'll be in my Inventing Corner.

[Short Knife Johnson]

OK, in case any of you are wondering.  I didn't have the forethought to grab my camera and take pictures, but I should have.  Perhaps when I do the final run then take photos of the stp by step.

The paper bullets seated atop a full charge of black and an 1/8" SPG grease cookie, then coated in beeswax function through my '73 like nobody's business.  The loading gate is a little tough on the nose of the first one, but whatever.

Tomorrow after work, I'll grab my guy from the Fort and have him witness the tests to see if they are safe for a re-enactment.  I plan on shooting at a large cardboard disk at 25 feet and... or the first time ever, hope that whatever comes out of the muzzle, does not, under any circumstances strike the target. 

[Montana Slim]

I don't use or recommend any type of "wad", Just BP & green florist foam. Leastwise if your intending to shoot in the general direction of other participants.

Luck to ya,
Slim

[Dalton Masterson]

Get the wet type floral foam from Walmart's craft section. Put your powder charge in, and pack the rest of the case with floral foam. Then use a wood dowel and pack it in so its tight. Viola'! A nice safe blank that is very loud and realistic. Works for shotguns too if you cut the old crimp off.

Of course, you may opt to start drilling out primer holes a tad, so that the primers dont bind in a revolver, but that shouldnt matter to a rifle.

For my 45 Colts, I ran the brass through my crimp die, with an extremely tight crimp, so that it bottlenecked it a little. Now with a little lever wiggle, I can get them into my 73. Not fast, but I dont have to single load the thing at least.
DM

[Bow View Haymaker]

Since were talking blaks hear, how about some cut down plastic .410 cases?  maybe make them so that you can still put the star crimp on them and have the corect overall length.??
you mentioned .410 and I had a thought. 

[Short Knife Johnson]

OK, so I swallowed my pride and breached Wal-Marx's doors.  I could only find Dry Floral Foam.  Not that they were out, but there was no labels for Wet Foam. 

The package states "Flammable: Do not expose to open flame."  Does the dry stuff leave any sort of residue behind?  I'm thinking to cut 1/2" slabs, cut the plugs, and shape a nose to facilitate feeding.  It seems sturdy enough.  I will still employ a grease cookie to keep the fouling soft for easier clean up, but mebbe put a newsprint wad over powder.

And for anyone wth any concern, I will be testing my original idea on cardboard backing before going any further.

[Dalton Masterson]

The only difference in the wet and the dry, is that the dry is more like styrofoam, and is courser. The wet is very very pliable and you can leave finger marks in it. Very fine texture.

We tried to pop balloons with the foam at 5 ft and had to get right up to them to do it.

If you are putting newsprint and a cookie in it, you are still adding a projectile. No wads are needed with the foam and cleanup is just as easy as usual. I have not seen any residue other than the normal fouling.


Interesting thought on the .410 cases, BVH. I might have to play with that.
DM

[Short Knife Johnson]

A trial run of the dry foam did not survive the loading gate and magazine spring. 

I'll have to stop by the flower shop and see what they have.

[Dalton Masterson]

The foam is not supposed to stick out..... It should be compressed into the case, and your case will look like an empty.
DM

[Short Knife Johnson]

Try feeding an empty through a lever action.  Don't bother getting back to me on how it goes.  I know what happens.

[Montana Slim]

Try feeding an empty through a lever action.  Don't bother getting back to me on how it goes.  I know what happens.

The "Gates" Supermag brass works great, needs no crimp....They are kinda pricy & may cause some pain ifn' ya lose em'.
Advantage over the crimped type 1) reloadable indefinitely 2) no danger from crimp petals becoming shrapnel.

.357 Lever actions are cheaper to feed....just start with .357 MAXIMUM brass & trim to OAL of a standard loaded round (that feeds well in your rifle).

I only use the "dry" foam.....compress the POWDER if desired (no wad)...then fill the last 1/4" with dry foam (cookie cutter technique), trim foam flush with case mouth.

Besure to FL size the brass using your standard loading die setup (resize & bullet seat/crimp)...but obviously, do't add a bullet (duh). This will help the rounds feed better. BTW, 44-40 blanks as described feed like butter in my Winchesters (3 of them)...And the .38's work great in my Rossi 1892).

Don't worry about the primer pocket for rifle blanks.

Slim
(who prefers not to get hit by "stuff")

[Dalton Masterson]

Yep.  My 73 feeds them, but like I said in a previous post, you just have to wiggle the lever enough to get the round in the chamber. Its not fast, but blank shooting isnt CAS shooting.
My 92 38/357 feeds them great though, as long as I have a nice crimp on the case.
Good luck.
DM

[Short Knife Johnson]

Well an original '73 won't feed them, and it's all I have to work with... (oh poor me)  

Anyway, I just got back from the Fort where we did some test firing of my brainchild.  I set up a large cardboard sheet on the stockade wall and stepped out 10 paces.  The site's manager (Scott) and the weapons curator (Grant) looked on as I fired at the board.  To my utter amazement, nothing happened.  The paper bullet disintegrated, there was a loud noise that kinda reminded me a little of a .44 WCF round being discharged.  The wraps of paper all fell (save for one) within 25 feet of the muzzle.  The eighth round fired penetrated the cardboard, so it wasn't a total success.  There was one, I have to admit, had more beeswax on than the rest, and the lube wad also stuck to the board.  Must have been that one.  

The firearms curator seemed very impressed.  He tells me this may solve their problem of using their RCMP 1876's in demos.  Right now they have to single load them and it ruins the feel so they don't do it often.  

So the plan now is to load 10 more up, forego the SPG wad.  Cutting the strand for the paper bullet a tad shorter so it's not wound so tight, make it 1/8" wider due to no grease cookie, and skimp on the wax coating.  

The engagement distances are not less than 75 yards, so both Grant and Scott looked fairly comfortable with the results of the intitial test and asked me to continue down this path.

I'm just surprised it actually worked as I had hoped.

[Dalton Masterson]

75 yards. Wow. We were at 25 feet and under for some of our shootouts. Those wouldnt work in our situation, but I could see them working fine in yours.
Good luck, have fun, and be safe!
DM

[Short Knife Johnson]

That is my #1 concern here.  I made 30 feet my arbitrary maximum danger zone.  I'll post photos of the start to finish.

The scenario is based on a historical event.  The water wagon that supplied the Fort came under fire.  A rider came to the walls with the report.  The CO assembled his men and the Home Guard comprised of civillians engaged an unknown number of combatants concealed in the treeline about 75 yards from the stockade walls on the East side.  The NWMP troopers and the Home Guard approached the enemy position to find nothing.  Simple hit and run.  To this day it is not known if it were Poundmaker's people, some Metis agitators from Batoche, or maybe some whites trying to stir the pot.  As I understand it, there was no blood spilled.

The Parks Canada people are hoping for minimal wind, and fairly low light conditions to exascerbate the situation in terms of smoke and muzzle flash.  So am I.   Apparently I am going to be one of the unknown combatants.  Geting a little excited at the prospect of this.