Chaparral .40-60 Rifle - Brass Update & New Question...

senormik · January 24, 2010, 10:24:08 PM

Hello all,

Recently got my first lever gun, a Chaparral .40-60 26" rifle, so I thought I'd chime in on my experience with Chaparral. My first impression was very positive. It is an early serial number Charter 2000 rifle. The bluing looks even and deep, the color case hardening is vibrant and colorful, and the laminated wood finish looks pretty sharp (although I understand that some don't care for it, and it certainly can't compare to real walnut). The lettering on the barrel and the script on the tang are well executed. More importantly, the action seems to function well, the trigger pull is reasonably light, and the hammer falls cleanly. The cartridge support lip is present at the bottom of the bolt.

The differences between the inexpensive Chaparral and (I assume) the Ubertis become apparent upon closer inspection. The wood to metal fit is okay, but not great. The sight dovetails are oversize for the sights, so that I can move both the font and rear sights with moderate finger pressure. However, there is a set screw on the rear sight that I can tighten down to prevent the sight from moving back and forth. I wonder if light peening of the front sight might tighten it up sufficiently...? The rear sight appears somewhat flimsy although adequate and the sight picture is clear. The hammer rubs lightly on one side of the hammer channel.

Of more concern, the magazine tube was approximately 1/4" forward of where it should have been, and the lip on the mag tube plug does not engage its slot in the bottom of the barrel. Clearly the tube had moved forward under recoil. Not sure if it will affect cartridge feeding. I was able to gently tap it back into position, but I will need to figure out how to retain it in position. Perhaps a machinist can weld up a bit more metal on the lip of the plug?

A little later I noticed that there are two slight dips in the top barrel flat about 2" and 4" from the muzzle. They don't hugely detract from overall appearance, but are noticeable to me in the right light. Similarly, the right side plate is slightly...wrinkled? Not sure how to describe it...the metal is ever so slightly wavy behind the loading gate. Once again, not something that pops right out at you, but now that I know it's there it is fairly annoying.

Last but not least, I began to disassemble it only to find that I can't remove the pin that goes through the lever, nor can I get out the pin that connects the toggles to the bottom of the bolt (I know my terminology is imprecise...I'm just getting into lever guns). So neither the lever nor the bolt can be removed. I tapped on each pin gently with a hammer and punch, but was not prepared to whack away for fear of damaging something.

Since this was a pre-owned rifle, I don't know if it came from the factory as it is or if it was worked on at some point. The three digit numbers on the inside of the side plates and on the stock under the tang are not the same as the last three digits of the serial number. Not sure if they are supposed to match, which might indicate that it has been factory overhauled, or if they are assembly numbers of some sort.

I'm eagerly waiting to find out if it will go bang when I pull the trigger. From what I've read, headspace could be a big issue. I've had cartridges on order from both Ten-X and Buffalo Arms for about a month. I also ordered brass from Rocky Mountain Cartridge, which arrived in about a week, but my dies are backordered. The rifle will feed an empty cartridge reasonably well, although the extractor is pretty loose on the rim and whether it ejects or not seems to depend on just how I manipulate the lever. Jams up fairly regularly as the shell ejects.

I hope this brief review is of interest to some of you 1876 lovers. Once I get my cartridges, I will compare them if it would be useful for anyone. I really like the heft of this rifle, and am looking forward to a .45-75 one of these days.

Cheers,
Michael

Grizzly Adams · January 24, 2010, 11:29:27 PM

Welcome to the fire, Michael.

Thanks for the excellent post on your Chappie. We have not had many in this group who have the 40-60, so we will look forward to hearing how it functions on the range.

savage99t · January 26, 2010, 02:56:14 PM

I hope you have better luck with yours than I did mine. I bought one in 45-75 about two weeks ago and got the ammo for it and I got two shots off before it quit. This is a new production one proofed in Italy. I'll guarantee they aren't proof firing these in Italy either because after two rounds of Ten X the links had bent the front and back pin in the receiver and opened the headspace up to the point the firing pin wouldn't hit the primer hard enough to fire the rifle. All I can say is the receiver and barrel are decently made and the rest of the gun is pretty low quality. If the toggle links had been made correctly where the ends butted up against the back of the bolt and the back of the receiver this gun would still be shooting. Making the gun to where to .156 pins were taking all the force was pretty dumb. The bolt on the rifle looks like it was hand finished by a kid with a grinder. It didn't spend much time on any sort of modern milling equipment. If Chaparral had spent more time on the small details that stick out like a sore thumb they'd have hit a home run. I had read all the comments on this site about them and decided to take a chance on a new production one so I can't say going in I didn't know I might get burned......and I did

senormik · February 02, 2010, 07:16:58 PM

Savage99t,

I'm disappointed to hear about your experience with your Chaparral rifle. Needless to say, after reading your post I immediately removed my side plates to look at the relationship between the links and the frame / bolt assembly! Hard for me to say for sure, but it appears that the links butt up against the back of the receiver and the bolt. Since I can't get the bolt pin out, though, I do worry that it could be slightly bent in the way that you describe. I guess I won't be able to tell until I actually shoot it. Were the early production rifles that were assembled here in the States held to better QC, or is it just hit or miss?

Michael

senormik · February 12, 2010, 06:50:04 PM

Thought I'd give a quick update on the brass. As previously mentioned, the .40-60 brass I ordered from Rocky Mountain Cartridge Co. came very quickly, and they were a pleasure to do business with. I understand that this brass was turned on a lathe from bar stock. It is extremely consistent, and properly marked. I measured three pieces and got an overall length of 1.880", 1.878", and 1.878". The Rim diameter came in at .626", .626", and .626". Rim thickness miked .063", .064", and .063".

I got my brass from Buffalo Arms in about seven weeks. It is reformed .45-70 brass. I measured three pieces and found it to be less consistent than the RMC brass. Case overall length was 1.868", 1.865" and 1.869". Rim measured .600", .604", and .600". Rim thickness varied between cartridges and was inconsistent on each piece. On the first piece it measured between .058" and .066" at varying points. On the second piece it was between .057" and .059", and on the third piece it was between .059 and .060".

As a disclaimer, any of these inconsistencies could be partly the result of my measuring technique....!

I've been waiting on my cartridges from Ten-X for about two months now, so I can't compare it yet.

The Winchester cartridge specs from 1918 (as cited in Houze's, The Winchester 1876 Centennial Rifle) are: Overall length = 1.875" - 1.880". Rim diameter = .620" - .629". Rim thickness = .058" - .062".

Just got my dies, so I haven't loaded up any cartridges yet. My extractor grabs the rim of the RMC brass much better than it does the rim of the reformed .45-70. But it does seems to extract the .45-70, barely, depending on how I manipulate the lever. The only problem I've got right now is that shell holder that came with my Lee dies (#8 if I recall correctly) fits the reformed .45-70 brass, but not the RMC brass. Those rims are just a bit too big. Can anyone tell me which shell holder will fit the RMC brass?

Here are a few comparison pics (RMC on the right)...

senormik · February 12, 2010, 06:58:52 PM

One more question - I've got 210 gr cast bullets lubed with SPG from Buffalo Arms, Federal large rifle primers, and Pyrodex RS. I've never loaded with black powder or black powders substitutes before. Do I understand correctly that I want to more or less fill the case with powder, compressing the Pyrodex by about 1/8th of an inch when I load the bullet for best results? Any other tips on loading Pyrodex?

For cleaning, I got a black powder solvent from Midway, and I've heard that I should soak my cases in a hot water and vinegar solution. Any other tips for good success?

Thanks for any comments and suggestions!

Hoof Hearted · February 14, 2010, 02:32:05 PM

Mike

It's funny how a certain "dealer" and close friend of the owner of Chapparal USA was telling us all, over on the SASS wire, that these rifles were not made by ASM (it was actually the son of ASM founder) and that they were made on CNC equipment (must have used the equipment to hold up the workbench).

By looking at the pics your rifle is one of the early ones before Nick Ecker started assembling them for Chapparal USA. Under that painted on finish your stock and forend will be a Birch like wood just like the later rifles.

The fit and finish depended on the worker but rarely were they right. It is odd that your barrel has issues, all of the USA guns I have seen had real nice barrels (though they had issues figuring out how to use a chamber reamer).

The extractor issue is that the tip of it bumps up as it enters and leaves the groove cut in the barrel (some of this issue is caused by the bolt sagging as well as off center primer hits). Also the notch in the ejector for the rim is WAY too big. I have tried to fix all of these things (as well as welding up & refitting the tab on the bottom of the bolt face) in many differeny ways and even changed extractors and it remains a problem. Winchester Bob might have a repoop Winchester one that could be fitted.

The links and headspace problems love to rear their ugly heads. I changed the links in my personal rifle to ones from Winchester Bob and cured those issues.

I would spend some time at the Darksiders Den (forum above) and learn the ins and out of BP loading/shooting/cleaning.

Good Luck!
HH

senormik · February 21, 2010, 08:11:15 PM

I see exactly what you mean about the notch in the extractor. Mine is just as you describe it. I took it to the range a couple of days ago and ran about a dozen rounds through it. The great news is that it fired every time with no apparent headspace issues. Primer strikes were off center, but deep enough to pop the primer on the first hit. There was no measurable stretching of the fired cases, either. No half-cock issues, as some have had. Sights were acceptable, and do not seem to have moved in the dovetails during firing as I feared they might. This was all with Buffalo Arms smokeless rounds.

Extraction was somewhat problematic. When I was particular about lever manipulation it seemed to be okay, but I had several jams when the extractor jumped the rim with the shell half way out of the chamber. Once I load up some rounds with my RMC brass (with correct rim diameter) I'm hoping the ejection issues will subside.

I also fired four Pyrodex handloads. I assembled them quickly, just dumping Pyrodex RS into the cases and eyeballing it for light compression. Ended up with three rounds into about four inches at 25 yards, with the fourth round expanding the group to about 8". A bit disappointing, but hopefully by tailoring my loads I can improve it. Loved all the smoke! And I'm really becoming addicted to the satisfying "thump" you get against your shoulder when shooting these, even the baby .40-60. Quite different from 5.56mm.

The only real problem that I had was the magazine tube crept forward until it was about 1/4" past where it should have been. After four or five rounds the gap that formed between the receiver and the mag tube started trapping the rims of my cartridges, preventing more rounds from entering or leaving the tube. A sharp slap on the bottom of the receiver popped them loose, but I'll have to fix this issue before long. Any suggestions? I think I saw somewhere that folks have had success using slightly larger compression pins....

Thanks!
Michael

senormik · April 04, 2010, 12:15:01 AM

Looks like my mag tube problem is fixed. I took the rifle to a local gunsmith, who said that the dovetail was very sloppy which caused the mag tube retaining pin to only engage a small portion of the slot in the mag tube. He swedged the loose dovetail, applied Loctite "Green" sleeve retainer between the mag tube hanger and the mag tube, and made a longer screw to replace the mag tube cap screw, which now goes all the way into the barrel. This may have been overkill, but I shot 30 rounds out of the rifle last week with no mag tube movement, so I'm happy.

I'm having quite an accuracy problem, though. Buffalo Arms smokeless, .406" diameter .40-60 rounds shoot fine, but my own reloads with pyrodex and those same bullets range between 5 and 12" at 25 yards. I've varied the pyrodex compression with no luck. The bore slugs .406" in the grooves. Do I need a .408" bullet for accuracy?

larryo_1 · April 04, 2010, 02:30:42 PM

I have to put in my two bits wrth here. If you have or have access to, try some 0.408" slugs and see how they behave before going and getting a whole bunch. But my guess is that they will perform as to what you want. I got a couple of 40-82's that won't shoot worth squat with 0.406 slugs but do great with 0.408" slugs both jacketed and lead/gas check.

Jacobitejack · April 19, 2010, 12:35:36 PM

I just slugged the barrel on my Chap. 40-60 and was surprized to find .401-.402. I've got a .404 siizing die comming from Magma. I was having a hard time getting my cartridges to chamber all the way. It seemed the bullet was just too wide. I'm using a Lyman 200g in .403. It casts a 210g. .406-.407 bullet. Magma suggested a .403 die but 3 to 4 thousands seemed to be a stretch to size.