How many Grains in a CC ?

[August]

Roughly, generally, or most of the time, how many grains of black powder are there in one cubic centimeter?

[Pettifogger]

Grain size, powder brand, etc. all affect WEIGHT.  However, it's the volume that is important.  1 cc is roughly 15 grains of 3f BP.  It is nowhere near that weight of the subs.

[Dick Dastardly]

The number I use is 16.  But that's less important than the volume.  Since Genuine Powder has so many makers from so many countries for such a long time, you will find no universal answer.  Go with volume.

DD-DLoS

[Smokin Gun]

Grab up yerself a set of these Lee Dippers ... they work great. ffg or fffg volumetrically does not matter for any practical purpose when yer splittin' grains...
http://www.cabelas.com/p-0003088210598a.shtml

I finally picked up one a these and checked two of my adjustable 120gr BP  measurers and at a 30gr setting one was 28gr(rifle meas. w/flip up funnel) and the one that the funnel swivels was 29gr.
Close 'nuff?

The FP650 scale measures up to 650g accurate within .1g and measures in g, gr, oz, & ct ... $29 had to have it :O)
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/October2009/DigiScale.jpg

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Great scales!  And available at your nearest Hydroponic store?

[sail32]

A GRAIN, is a measurement of mass, some people think mass is weight. ( apples )
A CC, is a cubic centimeter, a measure of volume. ( pints of beer )
A volumetric measure, like the Lee dippers, will produce a different weight (mass), depending upon the type of powder used.
Lee provides a table giving an approximate mass depending upon the powder used for each of the dippers.
Electronic scales are inexpensive and prevent  headaches.

[August]

A GRAIN, is a measurement of mass, some people think mass is weight. ( apples )
A CC, is a cubic centimeter, a measure of volume. ( pints of beer )
A volumetric measure, like the Lee dippers, will produce a different weight (mass), depending upon the type of powder used.
Lee provides a table giving an approximate mass depending upon the powder used for each of the dippers.
Electronic scales are inexpensive and prevent  headaches.

Note to self:  Do not ask Sail32 any questions that start with "roughly, generally, or most of the time."

[Brizco-Z]

OK, But, not to go and highjack no body or no thing but, what would be a good dipper (Lee) to dip out a charge for a .32 Short load, I'm using a low bullet weight from Hunter, was just wondering if any body loaded .32 Shorts anymore??.  

This was brought to mind cause some body commented on a Sailer by the name of 32 get'n all specific and stuff.  Now, ya'll can get back to talk'n mass, volume, weight, cc's and grain stuff.............I just load up a fairly good shoot'n load and start shoot'n.

Brizco-Z

[john boy]

Note to self:  Do not ask Sail32 any questions that start with "roughly, generally, or most of the time."

Three Cheers for Sail32 - 100% Factually Correct and to the Point ... Electronic scales are inexpensive and prevent  headaches  .

[rickk]

If you start a Lee dipper, and figure out somehow how many grains are in a cc in that there particular dipper, and try to ratio it out for another dipper, don't be surprised if the math doesn't seem to work. A dipper twice is big is not guaranteed to hold twice as much powder (it may hold more in fact). The bigger the grain size the more true this becomes. It packs differently in a different dipper and the results are not always as predictable as simple math would suggest.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Yeah!

And forget that stupid sliding scale that comes with the set of dippers. It is totally inaccurate. I have checked it against most of the major brands of BP and most of the readings are off. The Lee dipper set is cheap. If you want to know how many grains each dipper portions out, buy the set and try it for yourself. Use a scale.

[wildman1]

BP will vary in weight from batch to batch, from brand to brand, and from one size to the next(2f-3f) due to different formulas and moisture content. WM

[Mako]

A GRAIN, is a measurement of mass, some people think mass is weight. ( apples )
A CC, is a cubic centimeter, a measure of volume. ( pints of beer )
A volumetric measure, like the Lee dippers, will produce a different weight (mass), depending upon the type of powder used.
Lee provides a table giving an approximate mass depending upon the powder used for each of the dippers.
Electronic scales are inexpensive and prevent headaches.

All of those are true (well sort of in a convoluted way), but only if you realize the statement, "Lee provides a table giving an approximate mass depending upon the powder used for each of the dippers." is really misleading.  The Lee dipper numbers for BLACK POWDER correspond to volumetric measurement (not the weight)  which is the traditional measurement technique for BP.  This is especially important when trying to fill cases to capacity and avoiding any empty space in the case.  It also guarantees consistent compression amounts from powder to powder, from manufacturer to manufacturer and from year to year.  A reloader in 1880 would throw the same volume as a reloader in 2011.  Is the same true for mass (we should be saying weight not mass)? Not by a long shot.

Sail32's assertion that, "A volumetric measure, like the Lee dippers, will produce a different weight (mass), depending upon the type of powder used."  just states the obvious.  Folks, we are talking Black Powder here not "smokiless."


I'm really confused... First it started with Sail32's post which is incorrect concerning Lee's dippers.  Then following that I have issues with later posts because of their perpetuation of his misstatement.

Go look at Lee's chart for their dippers:

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/Dippers.pdf

I am posting just the applicable BP info because I already have it on a spreadsheet.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Odds%20and%20Ends/Chart.jpg

So let's go through the responses:

The John Boy says:

Three Cheers for Sail32 - 100% Factually Correct and to the Point ... Electronic scales are inexpensive and prevent  headaches  

John Boy, come on, 100% factually correct?  What would Bill say?  I guess that stating the obvious about volume and differences in mass between different grain sizes is correct, but the point trying to be made was that the dippers are inaccurate because they don't measure mass.  

They were never intended to determine mass when it comes to BP.  If you are talking nitro powders you have one manufacturer for each powder listed and the relative volume will remain consistent  year to year and from lot to lot and from can to can.  You can even assign a relative weight by volume for nitro powder, we all do when we use a measure for dropping charges.  BUT!!  We are not talking  nitrocellulose powders here, we are talking BP and someone should have already pointed this out to the original poster as well as sail32.  The Lee dippers are simply a volumetric measure for BP, nothing more and never intended to be anything more than that.  If you take other BP volumetric measures you will find they correspond very well to the claimed volumetric grain amounts that Lee has on their chart.

Rick I believe your math is wrong.  Everyone here can prove it to themselves using the chart above.

If you start a Lee dipper, and figure out somehow how many grains are in a cc in that there particular dipper, and try to ratio it out for another dipper, don't be surprised if the math doesn't seem to work. A dipper twice is big is not guaranteed to hold twice as much powder (it may hold more in fact). The bigger the grain size the more true this becomes. It packs differently in a different dipper and the results are not always as predictable as simple math would suggest.

The math does work, if you run the numbers you will never find a deviation of more than 0.1 grains and that is probably because of their rounding for the original volume anyway.  Take the 1CC dipper as the base line, take the grain amounts listed on the base 1 chart and then multiply it by the volume of any other dipper and you will find it follows very closely.  For instance I extrapolated 1.9ccs and 4.0ccs in the chart below:

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Odds%20and%20Ends/Extrapolated.jpg

Looks close enough for me.  Is there something I am missing?

So... August,
Back to your original question, the answer is:

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Odds%20and%20Ends/1cc.png

That is according to Lee and I think most of us agree their measures are accurate volume wise.

Regards,
Mako

[rickk]

Mako,

I don't doubt my math, I doubt the LEE chart, especially for the 1F.  I am thinking that some desk jockey with a calculator and no serious interest in scales made the chart.

As far as X cc's = Y grains, I did some experiments last summer with both 1F and Cannon grade and found that two volumetric measures of the same volume but different height-to-diameter ratios filled with different amounts of BP by weight.  I'm not talking 1 cc measures either. I was weighing charges from 100 to 1500 grains.

Also, measures that were closer to "square" were more repeatable than measures that were tall and skinny or short and fat...

But, we already had this discussion and it wore me out the last time 

[Mako]

Rickk,
A grain volume is the weight of one grain of water, pure simple plain water.  Nothing more, noting less.  Why is this such a hard concept?

It's very simple, August asked about a one cubic centimeter measurement so we will use that and give him a "twofer."  One cubic centimeter of water weighs exactly one gram, one gram is 15.432358347 grains (let's call it 15.43 grains among friends).  So a one CC volumetric measure holds 15.43 gr of water, how much BP does it hold?  15.43 grains by volume... How much by weight?  I depends on the manufacturer and the grain size. 

Lee tells us their 1cc scoop holds 15.9gr of FFFg by weight, 14.7gr of FFg and 13.9gr of Fg by weight.  Which manufacturer?  It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter if you use YETI powder that weighs 40.0 gr per 1cc measure or the brand SOFT & FLUFFY which weighs a scant 2.0gr per 1cc.  They are both 15.43 grains by volume.  It doesn't matter where it is measured either, it could be at the at the bottom of the Marianas Trench, on Mt. Everest, or on Mars...It doesn't matter, the dipper will always hold 15.43 grains of powder.  I find our European and foreign brethren have a better handle on this than we do.  They always talk in terms of Cubic Centimeters of powder.  The problem is most of us start out reloading nitro powders and we are warned incessantly to always measure by weight and in grains.  Then they never can make the mental switch that there are two types of grains.

People who cook have the same problem, there are ounces volume and ounces of weight.  Guess what?  One ounce volume of water weighs one ounce.  What about flour? Nope...  Chocolate? Nope...  In fact nothing weighs the same by volume as water.  Does that stop them from using measuring cups to bake or cook?  Do they get wrapped up in endless debates about fine flour over coarse flour?  Do they insist that they have to get electronic scales to correctly measure their ingredients?  You know the answer, cooking and baking is by volume.  Well so is loading BP, you fill up an area whether it be a cartridge case or a chamber.

If you're weighing out 1500 grains of powder then you are doing it for a mortar or cannon.  Volume applies there as well.

I used to have a division that did munitions, we used BP as the initiating charge on the fusing.  We filled the bursting tubes with BP, did we weigh it?  NOPE, not at the charging station, it was by volume.  Did we ever weigh it, yep.  It was weighed by lot at receiving inspection and QC weighed it periodically to determine stock consumption.  At the RIO we also did burn rates and pressure charting to assure it met the bursting rate criteria. 

I don't understand why you keep applying nitrocellulose concepts to BP.

Regards,
Mako

[rickk]

A grain volume is the weight of one grain of water, pure simple plain water.  Nothing more, noting less.  Why is this such a hard concept?

Cuz I don't use water as a propellant.


Even Lee's chart says that you should not expect the same quantity by weight (mass to be perfectly accurate) of BP in the dippers as you change from one size grain to the next.  

If one uses a Lee dipper and another uses another kind of measure with the same volume but different height/diameter or even a different material, one will probably get the same amount of water into it but not necessarily get the same amount of BP into it.  Even differences in filling technique affect the amount of powder that goes into a dipper. We all know that you can fill a dipper, jiggle it a bit, and then get more into it. Drop tubes, the pendulum on the Lyman 55, compression, jiggling, all affect how much BP one can fit into a given volume.

All of this is why the NSSA and several other organizations require that each charge be measured (or at least verified)  by weight, not volume for large bores.  Volumetric measures scare them.

Now don't get me too wrong. For handguns, rifles, shotguns I work out a filling technique, calibrate my chosen measure with a scale, and then use a volumetric measure from then on. Ain't no way I'm gunna weight out each handgun charge. But I'm gunna know what the nominal mass that there volumetric measure tends to throw with the powder I am dealing with at the time.  When I check it with a scale, I check it more than once to make sure the measure has the capability to be reasonably repeatable with the filling technique I am using.  Even with the big guns I use a volumetric measure to come 90% close, and then weight it and adjust as necessary. That speeds things up and provides a sanity check (I don't trust electronic scales 100 % any more).

[Henry4440]

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,35599.0.html

Density examples that I have determined:
100 gr volume pan weighed
Wt Vendor Grain
90.2 Goex Cartridge
91.2 DuPont FFg
91.9 KIK FFFg
94.1 Goex Cowboy
90.5 Goex FFg
94.4 Goex FFFg
92.5 Goex FFFg
91.6 Goex FFFg ... all the Goex FFFg's are different lots
94.4 Meteor FFg
97 Meteor FFFg
97.2 Goex Express FFg
97.8 Schuetzen FFFg
99.2 KIK FFg
102.3 Swiss FFFg
102.6 DuPont Fg
102.7 Skirmish Fg
104.4 Swiss 1.5
104.9 Swiss FFg

[Mako]

Rickk and Lonesome Henry,

First of all, you should be interested that a grain is a the volume of one grain weigh of water.  That is a standard, a standard pure and simple.  How many people actually know that?  How many actually acknowledge that?  Like I said cooks deal with it all of the time they know the difference between dry measure, wet measure and weight but for some reason with firearms everyone acts like it is voodoo and mysticism.

It's all about volume... As Lonesome Henry pointed out this is an age old discussion.  Yes we all know that the same volume of different powders weigh differently.  It's not any different than nitro cellulose based powders they are all different.  BUT, the big difference is that we can almost ignore the volume of the smokeless powders.  We do ignore it, constantly.  But with BP it is one of the driving factors of a correct load. We can all argue compression requirements but I think we all agree that space is not good thing (yes, yes I know that there are some heretics that will even dispute that).  

So with CAS shooting it is a moot point, just fill it up and compress.  Isn't this a CAS forum?  Let me check...Yep it says so in the site name.  So for loading say a .44WCF does the weight matter for CAS?  Nope, it's volume.

Okay let's stray beyond CAS to BPCR or other precision shooting like Lonesome Henry is doing.  Is it weight or volume?  Well it's a bit of both.  You have to find a volume that will fill your case.  You can then weigh it and for consistency you can even use a scale to verify you have the same volume taking the aggregate of each grain.  You can then adjust a bit up and down within a narrow band to maintain that case filling volume.

Is loading technique important?  For precision shooting you bet it is.  You've already pointed out different measure shapes will arrange the grains (especially coarser grains like you use) and affect the "scooped" volume.  Or in the case of rifle cartridges the dropped volume.  We see vibration tables, drop tubes and other techniques to assure the uniform packing of a volume.  This is not the case with smokeless powder.

And Rickk in the case of NSSA I understand their trepidation.  They are spooky and want some relatively universal constant for keeping loads in the range they will allow.  Gravity is relatively constant on this planet (not entirely, but close enough for NSSA) so they use it to their advantage and require weighing.  You can get away with it for a muzzle loaded cannon because the volume is set when you "ram" home the charge and projectile.  Now if you were using common measuring increments such as 1/4 dry measure cups they would probably be happy, but when participants show up with home made measures or pre-bagged charges they just want a method of verifying the charge.

Your mixing apples and oranges here.  Muzzle loaders set the volume every time they are loaded, cartridges require the powder volume to match between cartridge volume, bullet position and powder volume.  Shooters in BPCR who taper crimp or use friction fitting can adjust their bullet position up and down to find the sweet spot for their load.  But they also have limits because they want to maintain a relative position of the bullet ogive to the lead or rifling lands.  The same is not true with magazine fed rifles etc. because we have to use a crimp in a feature to keep the bullets in place.  Our volume is pretty much set.

So do me a favor, don't show disrespect the volumetric standard of a grain.  It is the equivalent of one grain of water.  For some reason people think it is some arcane or made up volume, it's not.  It is one grain volumetric, just as 1 cup of volume is 8 ounces of water by weight, one pint is 16 ounces of water by weight, one gallon is 8 pounds by weight.

As one of my PhDs  used to always remind us, "Don't disrespect the data..."  His point was that you have to accept the data and not try to force it to your own theories.  So don't disrespect the standard.  A grain is a grain, it doesn't matter what material you are trying to measure.

Regards,
Mako

[rickk]

Mako,

I love our discussions....

We both look at the same tree from two different sides, but ultimately it really is the same tree.

[fourfingersofdeath]

I don't get too excited about it. I have a look at the cylinder/case and guesstimate which dipper I need. I then go up or down in dipper size until the powder comes up or goes down to where I want it. When I open a new lot of powder, I use the one I used last time, but check if the powder level is where it was last time and adjust accordingly.

I got enough problems with out going out of my way to dazzle myself with science, lol.