My Ultra Gamer Short Stroked Henry

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Unfortunately, the thread about short strokes got locked before I had a chance to put my two cents in. Yes, I had Happy Trails install a set of short stroke links in my Henry when he did an action job to it. Now before everybody gets their undies in a twist, take a look at this photo. On top is my Henry, underneath it is my unshortstroked '73 for comparison. Notice how little the Henry has been shortstroked. Does anybody really think my Henry has been so drastically modified that it is no longer a Henry? Does anybody really think I am going to win a match because of this? Every shooter who has handled or shot my Henry is completely unaware that it has been shortstroked unless I tell them. There just is not that much difference between it and the original factory stroke.



The reason I had Hap install the short stroke kit was for the exact same reason that Flint was talking about when he posted the original thread. I hold my Henry with my left hand just in front of the frame, and I have a spacer stick that rides in the magazine behind the stack of ammo. I am not fond of the Henry Hop, that's why I hold it like I do, and that's why the spacer stick is there. When the rifle is empty, the spacer stick causes the follower tab to stop moving just in front of my hand. Without the short stroke links, holding my Henry this way, my hand would interfere with the stroke of the lever.

When he did the work, Hap asked me if I wanted the 'Wicked' Short Stroke kit. I replied no, all I wanted was to shave an itty bitty amount off of the stroke, so I could hold the rifle the way I wanted to without my hand interfering with the lever stroke.

So there you have it, a short stroked Henry that has so little stroke removed that it is barely noticeable. There are different amounts of short strokes available with the various kits, this one is pretty mild.

I also had Hap install a safety feature of his own design inside the gun, since I am not crazy about shooting a toggle link rifle that does not have a safety interlock like the '73 has, in case of an out of battery discharge. That's one reason I don't like the '66. If you don't like the idea of the safety device down inside, just remember that when Winchester developed the 44-40 cartridge for the '73, it was powerful enough that they thought it would be a good idea to incorporate the lever safety. They didn't bother with the less powerfull 44 Henry Rimfire. My Henry is a 44-40 and I am much more comfortable shooting it with the safety device inside.

Oh, I forgot to mention my gamer buckhorn sight, you guys probably don't approve of that either.

[stepnmud]

Now ya done it!
I'd almost quit the Henry section  altogether,  enjoyed the pics.
the safety lever lock looks to have been removed, is that because of the newly installed safe device?

[Driftwood Johnson]

The '73 still has the conventional lever actuated safety interlock. The Henry never did have one.

[Driftwood Johnson]

P.S.

I have just been snooping around for a photo of a real Henry and how far the lever opened. I just scanned this page from the History of Winchester Firearms by Dean K Boorman into my computer. At the top of the page are these two Henrys with their levers open. I can't be sure but it appears to me the firing pin extensions are all the way back on these two old rifles, pushing the hammers to full cock. If that is the case, the strokes on these two original Henrys are slightly shorter than the stroke on my 'short stroked' Henry. This may be because the original Henry rimfire round was considerably shorter than the rounds the current reproductions are chambered for. In any case, the result of short stroking a Henry may not be quite so inauthentic as some of us seem to think.




P.P.S.

You oughta see how short the stroke was on a Volcanic!!

[Fox Creek Kid]

Driftwood, I think the point many were trying to make is the principle of the matter re a level playing field. 

[Major 2]

Drift

I locked the other thread because..it was becoming redudent "he said ...he say's ...  ya ... nah, yada yada yada ".

Your post is quite enlighting with the orginal photo...and your gun certainly is not a gross departure from OEM.
However, it is a Short Stoke and there for not approved for NCOW's ( SASS yes )
as as FCK pointed out " principle of the matter of a level playing field "

Two issues arrise as well... where does it stop ..I mean in the swing radius arc... if your itty bitty stroke is allowed,who's to judge
Hap's Wicked Stroke or some other short stroke should not be also allowed.
And secondly saddly , I know Hap has or about stopped his Smithing side of his Business.

No, I don't I think yours into of relm of gamer... and I doubt anyone would casually notice...
Just the NCOWs Rule's say "NOT" ....and there beats a (and my prefured) different drummer.
SASS Rule's  say  " why not "  and they do 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Major

Thanks for your comments. I don't shoot NCOWS, so I am not familiar with its rules.

My post was directed more at those who think that altering the insides of a Henry at all is a sacrilege, and I wanted to point out the amount of stroke on an original Henry compared to modern replicas.

[Major 2]

I assumed you did not shoot NCOWS ...

All I have here is SASS & W3G ..but my interest and shooting doctrine prefurs NCOWS. So I cotten to and follow their Rule book.
I fancy myself, in Originals Class with just two guns.

I shoot my Henry's & Richards ( and to be within the spirt of local shoots ) a second Richards & Mulley SXS...
I don't care much about my elapsed time , just a GOOD time.  Old, slow and deliberate... 

Is kinda fun though, to use my " Slower " pieces and time in a bit ahead of Race gunners 

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

You all know how I feel about SS, so I'll stay out of this one!

OCB

[Pancho Peacemaker]

This issue about "short strokes" comes up frequently.  I've been involved in the debates and I shoot both SASS and NCOWS.

My understanding of the principles of both groups:

SASS:  Short strokes are "legal", but due to the overzealous engineering attempts of a few, SASS had to put some objective metrics in place to note what is a 'legal' short stroke distance.

NCOWS:  NCOWS rules are more about the "spirit" of the law than any objective distance.  NCOWS firearms 1) should be authentic or replicas of pre-1900 designs and 2) they should not be modified with any technology unavailble during the 1865 to 1899 period.  NCOWS does not provide an objective length of travel for what a short stroke is or isn't, it simple outlaws them based on the principle of 'no modifications."

Now the modification and pictures you present are interesting.  NCOWS would rule your Henry 'illegal' because of the presence of a modification (short stroke) that is not period.  Remember, NCOWS rules deal with the presence of a modification, not the amount of a modification.  If the rear sight had no white dot, it would be legal as some buckhorn sights were available during the period and you can see some on 1860's in the Madis text.  You would need to declare that stroke modification, as I think it would require very careful scrutiny from a range officer to realize that a modification has taken place.

For interest, here's a link to Yellowstone Kelly's '60 Carbine.  You can see a closeup of the buckhorn sight (likely added outside the factor):  http://www.rarewinchesters.com/gunroom/1860/M60-06850/model_60_06850.shtml

The antique pictures are also very interesting.  I would love to see an actual 1860 placed next to a modern 1860 replica for comparison of the lever throw.   No doubt this difference exists due to the difference in cartridge lengths.

[Buffalow Red]

i dont hace a short stroke in my 66 but it apperas to me if the orignal stroke in the henry is shorter than uberties a change to the orignal lever travel wood be in order just to try & stay orignal as possable

[Driftwood Johnson]

Pancho

Thanks for your reply. First off, I don't think we have any NCOWS shooting nearby, and from the sounds of it I am not really interested in it anyway. Just a little bit too historically strict for my taste. I did check out the approved list of firearms, and find it interesting that Ruger Vaqueros and New Vaqueros are allowed, despite this statement:

"Cartridge firearms shall be original to the period or authentic reproductions of original makes and models. “Short-stroke” modifications to lever-action firearms are not allowed."

It's beyond me how a Vaquero or New Vaquero with its completely redesigned lockwork is an 'authentic reproduction', but I suppose they are so popular that NCOWS had to bend that rule.

NCOWS probably would not approve of the tiny ivroid insert in the front sight of my old Marlin either, despite the fact that the rifle is over 100 years old. The front sight is probably an old Lyman sight, I cannot vouch for its date. Such inserts are legal in SASS.



By the way, what is the NCOWS take on a spacer stick in a Henry?

One more thing, here is a photo I found in the same book as the Henry photos showing the stroke of an original Winchester Model 66.



I know I'm beating a dead horse here, I just get a little bit tired of those who believe that short strokes are inherently evil. To me, it is all a matter degrees.

Buffalo Red:

The reason for the shorter strokes on the original Henry and Win Model 66 was because of the shorter ammunition they fired. The frame of a modern reproduction Henry is actually slightly longer than the frames of the originals. It has to be to accomodate the longer 45 Colt and 44-40 ammo they are chambered for. The cartridge elevator on an original was not long enough for those rounds. It was designed for the much shorter 44 Henry Rimfire round. So the frame had to be stretched a little bit to accomodate a longer elevator for a longer round. This has probably changed the geometry of the toggle links, requiring them to fold farther to allow the bolt to retract far enough to clear the longer ammo. Folding the links more results in a longer stroke than the originals. I suspect this is all true of the '66 too.

[stepnmud]

I'll have to be in Driftwood's camp, but in the past I have shot at NCOWs matches and really enjoyed the folks and action shooting events and association with some fine folks. Everything that Driftwood posted plus the idea that the short stroke kit was not available at the time of manufactor.
Here's a picture of the short stroke parts necessary for a modern 44WCF Uberti rifle, (two links & a lifter arm) with the geometry slightly changed.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/stepnmud/RonSnoverlinks002.jpg?t=1252350261

[Pettifogger]

NCOWS looks like a fun group.  However, as a practical matter they are a very small group and don't exert much influence on CAS shooting.  There are only 14 NCOWS clubs in the whole country.  Heck a lot of states have more than 14 SASS clubs.  I suspect SASS has a lot more impact on gun manufacturers' and gun accessory makers' product decisions than NCOWS.

[Pancho Peacemaker]

Regarding the spacer stick:  since most folks use a wooden dowel for this, I don't think it would be outlawed.  Wooden dowels were available back then.  I don't think NCOWS has 'officially' addressed this.

The ivory sight would be ok.  Ivory was available back then.  In fact, if you have an item that you believe should be legal, you can present it to the NCOWS congress along with your proof and they will vote or get a ruling form their authenticity committee.  NCOWS is membership run, so we have lots of good democratic processes in place.  I just went through that process to get my Henry Carbine included in their list of approved guns.  (There was some debate regarding the availability of a factory produced Henry carbine from New Haven Arms.)   The process was a lot of fun and I enjoyed the research.  Learned a ton about the New Haven Arms history in the process.

Regarding the Vaquero:  That was a very long debate amongst the NCOWS congress and membership.

NCOWS isn't really about being "strict", it's about western shooting with a little different focus.  In some ways, NCOWS is a little more open as you can use pre-1900 double action revolvers as your main match guns.  I joined NCOWS about a year ago and I'm enjoying every minute of it.  I still also enjoy the SASS game as well.  I am a big history buff and I enjoy shooting along with good fellowship and that's what NCOWS is all about.

I know the moderators here want to keep the subject on Henrys, so I'll end on that note.

Pancho

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

NCOWS started when the Ruger Vaquero was the only game in town, so they were grand fathered in, it had nothing to do with popularity.

There are some of us that wished they hadn't been but they were so we have to live with that decision since we are a member driven organization and that's the way it was voted on....hopefully that will change down the road.

Yes we are a small group but we are growing and before you get bent out of shape about our by laws, a lot of us are SASS members too. I've been in SASS longer then most of you have been born and enjoy both. I just like the NCOWS philosophy better.

Enjoy what you like but don't knock what the others groups out here are trying to do.

Bill

[stepnmud]

I'm pretty much a law abider and follow the rules as needed even if I don't understand the logic. Really enjoy shooting my Henry converted from 44WCF to 44Russian with 16 rounds in the magazine as per originals with blackpowder loads and 200 gr. home cast bullets and refinished wood stock with oil finish and plum browned steel barrel and aged look of the brass frame with a wood dow safety stick and SHORT STROKE kit for SASS Matches and easily changed to original lever throw for 44WCF cal. ala 44Special or 44 Russian to shoot NCOWs if the spirit moves me. Only been a SASS shooter for the past 10 yrs. so have lots of room for improvement and would like to shoot with some friends again at NCOWS matches. Bottom line is I really like shooting this Henry rifle.

[Pancho Peacemaker]

would like to shoot with some friends again at NCOWS matches. Bottom line is I really like shooting this Henry rifle.

Stepnmud,

I noticed you're Houston.  Our club in Greenville became a registered NCOWS posse (the first in Texas) this past year.  We shoot matches twice a month.  If you're up our way, look us up.  There are a few pards out in East Texas that are trying to get another NCOWS posse going as well.

Pancho

[stepnmud]

Thanks Pancho for the invite and will meet up for a NCOWS match sooner than later.

[Jed Cooper]

Thanks Pancho for the invite and will meet up for a NCOWS match sooner than later.

Stepnmud, OK pard, we plan to make the arduous journey from Indianapolis. Consider making the regional in november. I , as well as other would love to meet as many fellow shooting pards as possible, to put faces on the folks we talk to on this great forum hall. PS Your handle is great. Reminds me of my luck, sept I tend to step in sumpn a mite smellier .   Safe shootin  Jed