MK-III Range Test ... 600yds

[john boy]

Went to the range today with the 4 recipes listed below for testing at 600yds...
Loaded 4 Recipes:
Constants for all the recipes:
... R-P cases - weight sorted within 2.5grs
... All cases trimmed lengthen to 2.08
... All cases annealed
... All cases have the primer hole drilled out to 092 (was the hole diameter used at the Three Mile Sandy Hook Shoot)
... All cases neck chamfered with a 22 1/2 degree reamer
... All cases primed with a CCI Br-2 primer
... All cases have a 030 LDPE over powder wad
... All bullets lubed with the first grease groove left empty - as cast.  Why?  These bullets are really bore riding bullets (ogive base at driving band is 451).  Accordingly, they are going to have a fouling scrapper with the 1st groove empty.  When shot, the bore will be patch wiped with a 50:50 mix of Prestone Anti-Freeze and water
... All bullets slip fitted with 0.005 neck tension (no crimp)
... All reloads are COAL of 2.92 to fit my Sharps.  A light caming using a bullet seater will put the driving band up against the leading bore cuts.  With the slip seating of the bullet and the cartridge seating of the round - this will emulate a breach seated round used in yester years with accuracy (hopefully!)

Variables of the 4 Recipes:
#A - 3.5gr Unique and 66.5gr Swiss 1.5.  Compression of 0.35 was needed to obtain the COAL using 70gr equivalent.
#B - 70gr Swiss 1.5.  Compression of 0.85 was needed to obtain the COAL using 70gr.  Actually, this is too much compression for Swiss
#C - 70gr Pinnacle FFg
#D - 59.5gr vol (41.5gr by wt) Hodgdon H777 FFg
All powder charges used are 70gr or 70gr equivalents

The recipes will be shot when I return from vacation in July at 600yds.

Temperature - 71 degrees (light mirage)
Relative Humidity - 87%
Wind - 2 to 10mph SE (range faces N to S)
Sky Conditions - Clear
Altitude - 55' above sea level

Preface:  Used a 600yd maintenance target pasted on a full size 600yd target.  Shot multiple 3 shot groups
Results:  Refer to recipe code (A-B-C-D) above.  Of the 50 rounds reloaded, shot 21 and only 11 printed on the 600yd maintenance target (36 x 36" black).

#A - 8 1/4 x 3 1/4" ... 3 shots
#B - One in 8 ring (10:00) and 2 fliers nowhere on the canvas
#B1- Three POI's in the 5 ring (1 1/4 x 3 1/2)"  Too bad the holes were not on the maintenance target so you could see the group
#B2- One in the 6 ring and 1 in the 5 ring, 8" from the 6 ring hole and 1 in the 9 ring @ 12:00
#B3 - Marked on target as B4
#B4-  One in 8 ring @ 12:00 ... 1 in the 7 ring at 3:00 and 1 in the 6 ring @ 1:00
#C - One in the 6 ring @ 11:00 and 2 fliers
#D - 3 shots nowhere to be found on the canvas
The 2 yellow pasties are sighters that I shot using Postells


Conclusion:  School is still NOT out!  The 12 #B reloads should have printed consistently but they didn't.  This makes me suspicious that the #B recipe is not reliable going from great to sucks.  I believe that the #B recipe (70gr Swiss 1.5) was too much FFg powder for the length of the bullet.  This worries me.  If it is to be a 1000yd recipe .... the bullet is too long to put 70grs of FFg powder in the case with the proper compression in the 0.30 range.  Only alternative is the MK-III will have to be loaded with FFFg using a 2.1 case

Where the H777 (#D) bullets went I have no idea.  Could of been that they shot high and the sight setting should have been set substantially lower.  The #C (Pinnacle) also shot high and the 2 flyers had to be over the canvas.

I didn't chronograph these reloads but obviously the bullet likes fps in the 1200 range (re: #A and the good #B).  Also, the next reload batch will not be loaded with the driving band in the leade.  Am of the opinion they should jump into the leade using a 0.003" distance.  There was no lube starvation with the first GG left empty

On a good note, all bullet holes were straight in and the bullet does not yaw sideways.  Obviously the MK-III has potential with the right recipe.  So, git to it guys!  And no verbal bullshit groups - TARGET PICTURES ONLY!

If anyone plans to shoot 600yds, send me an email and I'll pass on the MOA sight settings that I used.

[Dick Dastardly]

Glad yer back JB.  Hope you got to enjoy the Crab Pot.

Flood waters beginning to recede here.  Shot a SASS (Sat)/ NCOWS (Sun) match and just got back to the ranch.  Photos coming this week.

DD-DLoS

[john boy]

Glad yer back JB.  Hope you got to enjoy the Crab Pot.

Thanks Dick - the 23 day vacation was G-R-E-A-T, including ...
A Feast for Three - at the Crab Pot... John Boy -Mrs John Boy and Hedley Lamarr ... What a Crew!

Two Thorns and a Rose 

[Ranch 13]

John, just for kicks load 10 of that 70 gr swiss charge go with a fiber wad, instead of the poly, and resize the cases so there's good neck tension. Don't wipe until the rounds won't chamber. I'm thinking those groups might tighten up some. With as much lube as that bullet is said to carry, wiping with antifreeze, may just be leaving the bore a bit slick. When you do need to wipe just use a spit patch.

[john boy]

Don - Advice taken!  I'll load 20 the next go round using your recommendation.

But I still have 2 concerns:
1.  Lubing both GG's and seating them deeper
2.  Then being able to seat it with a compression in the 0.3 to 0.4" range leaving a COAL that will fit in the chamber.

To obtain a proper COAL, I'll have to switch from a FFg powder to a FFFg. If I was shooting a 45-90, it would be a no brainer

[Ranch 13]

John, I honestly wouldn't sweat the seating deeper. I seat both the postell and the rcbs bullet to the driving band, and that rcbs bullet carries about a pint of lube. . I also wouldn't sweat the compression much either, if it makes you feel better just drop 2 grs, that will likely give you the needed room, and probably won't make but 10 fps difference.

[john boy]

Don, next Go Round ... plan to use 68gr of FFFg (Schuetzen or Meteor) and TRY to get COAL with a compression of 0.3 or 0.4 with the bullet seated to the driving band and not have to use a cartridge seater to get it into the chamber.

Am almost positive that the hard compression using the Swiss 1.5 caused the POI's to be all over the place at 600yds

[Ranch 13]

Well hurry up then I'm watching your exploits with this thing intently.

[john boy]

Hurry Up? Talk to my Mrs then.  She has a laundry list longer then the tail on a Japanese kite!
Seriously, I'm at home now since the vacation and all my reloading stuff is still at the shore house.  Will be going up this weekend to 'kidnap' the items.  So should be in a week or so until I get more MK-III's loaded and to the range.
Patience - Grasshopper 

[Ranch 13]

  Well alright then, guess I'll just go back out to the hay field and work some more

[john boy]

OK, Gentlemen of the BPCR ILK!  Here we go again ...
... R-P cases - weight sorted within 2.5grs
... All cases trimmed lengthen to 2.08
... All cases annealed
All cases full length sized this trip
... All cases have the primer hole drilled out to 092 (was the hole diameter used at the Three Mile Sandy Hook Shoot)
... All cases neck chamfered with a 22 1/2 degree reamer
... All cases primed with a CCI Br-2 primer
All cases have a 030 fiber over powder wad
All compressed 0.298
10 cases loaded with 65gr Meteor FFg (wt) - 287gr bullet
10 cases loaded with 65gr Meteor FFFg (wt) - 284gr bullet
All grease grooves lubed with my Modified Popes Lube
All bullets seated 0.645 to the bottom of the driving band
All bullets with an COAL - 2.820.  Too deep?  We'll find out.  I normally seat my other rounds at 2.90 so they jump  into the leade
No crimp - slight bell left on

Hopefully I will be able to give them another ride to 600yds this week.  But in the meantime, am sticking close to the telephone. 

Good indication I'll be a Grand Pappy for the 2nd time 

[Dick Dastardly]

I wish you the best on both counts John Boy.  Sounds like someone besides yerself has been doin' some accurate shootn' round yer ranch. . .

The very best,

DD-DLoS

[Ranch 13]

Keep us posted on both endeavors.

Gramma's lil miss Addison is supposed to arrive thursday via c section. That'll make the second girl and Gramma Shorty is exstatic there's sumpin sides boys comin

[john boy]

Well Don - ain't that something special!  We could have granddaughters (Momma peeked) born on the same day.  Congratulations to all! 

I got itchy gents - went back to the bench and loaded 10 more.  Same as the new batch with these differences:
... Federal 215 primer
... 68gr Meteor FFFg
... COAL 2.90 with the 1st GG half exposed

[Ranch 13]

  Well maybe someday we can sit back and smoke us a pink cigar and toast to how fantastic those gals can shoot.
Give mom and the rest our best wishes,
ANd lets get some groups shot soon.....

[Dick Dastardly]

They had a fund raiser for a kid that got injured.  He's lost the use of his legs.  El Paso Pete's bride, El Paso Rose, brought lots of Pete's Cowboy Action stuff to 'Hang Um High' to be auctioned off at a silent auction.  I scored Two pounds of Swiss 1-1/2.  I'll be loading this under the new MK-III bullets for my next test.

CCI 300 primers
WW brass
68 grains of Swiss 1-1/2
1/16" Circle Fly wad
MK-III bullet lube sized to .458"

DD-DLoS

[john boy]

24 Jul 2008 Range Report:
The 3 latest receipes (10 reloads each) went to the range and were shot:
Temperature - 95F
RH - 49%
Winds: 17 - gusting to about 25 mph.  Winds from the West - Gusts from the NNW
The range faces NE

Results:
Of the 30 rounds, only 15 of the 30 rounds had a POI on the 600yd maintenance target.  I shot 2 targets
First when the winds were gusting.  The 2nd later in the early evening when it was dead calm

First Target - Gusting Winds

11 of 18 POI's from the these recipes printed on the target:
65gr Meteor FFg (wt) - 2  487gr bullet
65gr Meteor FFFg (wt) - 2  484gr bullet
68gr Meteor FFFg
Many were POI's on the canvas.
NOTE:  My windage setting was dead on 12:00 - 6:00 that I tested with Postells on another target @ 600yds

Second Target - Dead Calm Winds

4 of the remaining 12 printed on the maintenace target.  The yellow patches are POI's that I was trying to get the Lyman 457124 to shoot at 600yds.  Believe with a little more juice, the 124's will fair well at 600 

Observation: 
1.The bullet drifts substantially when shooting conditions are windy, evidenced by Target 1 and the many uncounted POI's on the canvas in the 3:00 area (winds from the Westerly direction)
2.  I did not have any groups from all the recipes that were notable, example: 65gr FFg group that is 28" long .  So, I took no group measurements

OK - next picture


Bullet was found on ground after having bounced off berm tires
Cast Length - 1.360
Spent Length - 1.83
Cast Base - 458
Spent Base - 449
Cast Middle Band - 459
Spent Middle Band - 453
Base had no distortion (edges and bottom)

Conclusion:
Again, the jury is still out.  Based on the groups from 2 different range sessions:
Either I am having trouble getting the bullet to shoot - am a lousy shooter or the bullet is the issue.  Groups from those that do print are too big and too many flyers except the 2 good group during the 1st session

So, until others shoot the MK-III at long range and post their pictures of the groups ... I'm not going to test it further at 600yds.  I will take 20 of em with me when I go to Ridgeway to see how they fair at 1000yds.  Otherwise, I'm done with the MK-III unless good pictures of groups are posted with the related recipe(s).

Now, I gotta ask.  How many MK-III molds are out in the community and except for Cuts - who's shooting the bullet?

[Dick Dastardly]

I read this twice and wonder if some numbers are transposed?

"Bullet was found on ground after having bounced off berm tires
Cast Length - 1.360
Spent Length - 1.83
Cast Base - 458
Spent Base - 449
Cast Middle Band - 459
Spent Middle Band - 453
Base had no distortion (edges and bottom)"

Cast length is generally slightly LONGER than spent length.  Here we have a spent bullet, not shot into recovery media, where the spent length has GROWN from 1.360" to 1.830".  I'm at a loss as to how the bullet might stretch .48". . . .  That's near a half an inch and in the photo the 'spent' bullet looks near the same length as the unfired bullet.  Also, the bands and base diameter on the unfired bullets look about right.  Mine drop at .4585 as measured on all THREE bands.  The fact that the spent bullet measures as much as Four Thousandths different in the Two bands that were measured is difficult to explain.  They all went down the same barrel at the same time and ought to all measure the same.  I'm thinkn' that the less than scientific recovery might play culprit here.  I'd like to see chronograph data on the ammo shot for this exercise.

Regardless, this bullet can, and does, fly better than indicated.

DD-DLoS

[john boy]

I read this twice and wonder if some numbers are transposed?

  Dick - All ... yes I did transpose the numbers in the post and am truly sorry for providing the incorrect values!
Should be:
Cast Length - 1.83
Spent Length - 1.360

In fact, the numbers are also wrong.  Doing a re-measure:
Cast Length - 1.361
Spent Length - 1.284
Don't ask me where I came up with the incorrect lengths - cause I don't have a clue!

I'm thinkn' that the less than scientific recovery might play culprit here.  I'd like to see chronograph data on the ammo shot for this exercise.

Dick, give it a go and see what you come up with.  After all, it is your bullet

Cuts: I concur.  On the first test at 600yds there were 2 Excellent groups indicating very good potential and ballistic coeffients of a bullet do change from point of the muzzle to the target.  But groups were not consistent or even close for 51 reloads fired.  Yes, different rifles should used because we all know ... every rifle is like a women - unique likes.  And every one's eyes are also different

Plus, I don't think there are many of the new molds sold - so get the bullets out in the community to those that have the capabilty to shoot it at long range distances.  If I was Dick, I'd cast 200 or so bullets and line up volunteers to load and shoot em to see what their results would be at 500+ with different rifles before winter sets in.  At this point, evidence of LR groups has only been me and my Pedersoli Quigley.   Dick, still waiting for pictures of example groups with your Rolling Block

[john boy]

Here's a couple of bullets that I fired into a test box today - with the bullet seated 2 different ways.  Tell me what you notice is the difference and which bullet will never shoot with accuracy.  I reversed the bullets in the 2nd picture.



If I could have photographed the bullets closer, the differences would be much more noticeable