Leather Sewing Machines. How many use them?

[Marshal Tac]

All right pards, I am no where near as an accomplished Leathersmith as many of those here on this thread, but I have been "tinkering" with leather for a couple of years, and make much of my own gear for CAS and for work (I am a full time cop and range master for my department).

I have made about 10-12 off duty holsters for various handguns for guys at work, and several for myself in the last year or so. I also make off duty magazine pouches and small items like cell phone holders for the guys at work. I have done all of my work by hand with a stiching pony and needle and thread (sometimes with an sewing awl).

I am looking to start making some bigger items, such as chaps (both cowboy and modern for my Harley addiction  ).  I make holsters (modern not cowboy-yet) often enough to consider the cost of a leather sewing machine to speed things up and reduce wear and tear on my hands/fingers.

I have no experience with sewing machines at all, leather or otherwise. I have been told that the Tippman "Boss" was a good quality leather sewing machine for someone who is doing the small quantity/project type work that I have been doing.

Any pards out there with experience using this machine (or another if an alternate is suggested)? If so, what do you like/dislike and is it worth the expense for someone like me?

Any information or comment is welcome.

Thanks in advance....

P.S. There are some SERIOUSLY talented pards out there that I have learned alot from, just from reading this thread. Please keep up the good work and the pictures! 

[David Carrico]

Lucky for us, there are a lot more choices available than 10 years ago. I have an Adler 205/370, which will put you back about $5,000. But there are alot of other machines available now. While the Tippman Boss makes a nice stitch, you have to hand crank it for each stitch. It cost $1,500 with no motor. You can get machines with a motor for that price. It is also nice to have both hands free while sewing! Be sure to get adjustable stitch length and reverse! I'm not "reping" these companies, just FYI.

Toldeo Ind. Machines. 1-866-362-7397 "Cowboy" model $895-$2895.

Artisan www.artisansew.com 1-888-838-1408 $1,500-$2,000

Weaver Leather 1-800-Weaver1 $2,000- $5,300

There's more out there, just a few of the more popular ones. Just don't waste your time and money on someone's "old harness stitcher", unless you are a mechanic and would rather work on machinery than sew leather. Just my $0.02 worth!

[Marshal Tac]

Thanks for the reply Mr. Carrico. I hadn't thought about a "Lectric Machine", mostly due to my inexperience with sewing machines, and the associated cost.

I like the looks of the "Artisan" 3000, but I doubt that I can afford it right now.

Anyone else out there got a comment/suggestion?

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

Howdy Marshal Tac

             I sew by hand , and I don't have any experence with sewing machines, but a fella was telling me the other day , that he started useing a machine becauise his hands were bothering him , he said he got a heck of a deal on a heavy duty sewing machine at Harbor Frieght, for $750.00, and it had a top and bottom foot, he said it sewed leather , and he showed with his fingers , which looked to be over 1/2",s thick , he said this machine sewed right through it with ease. So I don't know , but it might be worth looking at , he said some of there stores didn't carry them and you had to get them from the wharehouse, I not saying there good or bad, don't know , but he sure liked it. Hope this was a little help.


                                                tEN wOLVES 

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I still sew by hand but only because I don't have enough work to justify a good machine. I have heard that the Ferdco is a good one, though, and would look into one of those if I was getting ready to buy.

Ferdco.com

Let's get a few more links in here to good manufacturers and I can put a link to this in our FAQ/Supplier thread so others can get here readily in the future. OK, who's using what machine and why?

[outrider]

Marshal Tac:

Like yourself I started making off duty holsters when I was a LEO (many years ago)  About four years ago I purchased a Tippman Boss, and after about two weeks of trying to figure out the proper adjustments I finally got it to work.  The Tippman is fine for just doing minor repairs as it is a hand operated machine and requires one hand to operate it  .. not very efficient About a year ago I bit the bullit and purchased A Ferdco Pro-2000 with the saddle attachment kit...it ran me just under $7,000.00 including the shipping costs. ($400.00).  Again a learning curve, but let me say that once you learn it you will use it all the time.  The Adler 205, like Dave Carrico has is also a great machine...Since the purchase of the Pro-2000 I have not used the Tippman hardly at all and I am considering just taking it off the bench and putting it away as a spare.  The Tippman with all the accessories will run you close to $2,200.00.  Call Ron at Ferdco (ferdco.com) and ask about any used machines they may have. I have attached a picture of the Ferdco.  ANother thing is that the Tippman only has an 8" throat which is not good when you have to turn your work.  The Ferdco on the other hand has a 16" throat..I believe the Adler 205 has a 12" throat.

I very rarely do any hand stitching anymore.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

WOW Marshal Will, and Outridder 

          I just checked out the Ferdco web site, I'm diffenitly, putting one of these sewing machines on my  Down The Road, WISH list, now I can let my mind wander deeper and deeper, into leather craft, with all new possibilites, and things I might be able to do with a machine like this , Thanks for sharing , 


                                                             tEN wOLVES 

[cowboywc]

Howdy All
I will always hand sew. I don't like the look of machine stitching and hand sewing is a stronger stitch, imho.
WC

[Marshal Will Wingam]

... hand sewing is a stronger stitch, imho.

I definitely agree. With a double-needle stitch, you actually have two threads going the full distance of the stitch line. A hand cinched stitch will be tighter than a machine stitch. Not only that, but if one breaks the other one will still hold everything fast. The saddlemaker who taught me how to do most of my assembly had a beautiful Pfaff machine but when it came to things that really needed to hold, like a circingle where the performer's life depended on it holding, he used the machine to punch the holes then hand stitched the item. LOL, actually, he had me stitch them.

[Dalton Masterson]

LOL, machines! Heck I have 3 or 4 of em, and havent used one. I met a lady who used to run a leather shop in our town, and she had several machines still. She sold me an old Adler, which is my favorite of the bunch. The motor is gone, but it has a hand crank on the front. I have played with it a little, but still prefer my handstitching. I also have a Pfaff, and a Landis 12. The Landis 12 is some heavy duty machinework. Probably weighs 400 pounds, and has needles that look like they could rip off your arms. Have never played with that one yet. Should sell it before I lose appendages. 
Good luck! DM

[outrider]

Howdy Pards:

The Ferdco machine is basically a re-design of the Juki 441.  The owner of Ferdco has several patents that were added to the basic design..If I am not mistaken in the beginning the Ferdco machine was called the "Ferdco Juki Pro-2000.  If any of you have the John Bianchi DVD on making western holsters you will see that he uses one of the Juki Ferdco2000's..according to what he said in the DVD "it runs like a swiss watch".  I was recenly informed by the owner at Ferdco that Bianchi has surpassed the $1,000,000.00 mark as far as invoiced holsters from that Ferdco machine.  BIANCHI - retired...I hardly think so.

IMO the Artisan and the "Cowboy" are both just cheaper copies of the original Juki 441 and the Ferdco.  Since I have never used either one (Cowboy or the Artisan) I am not giving an opinion on their merits or drawbacks.

I also like the way hand stitching looks and it is definately a stronger stitch...however I use the machine stitching because it saves me time.  when you have alot of orders to get done and only so much time  the machine is the way to go.

[Slowhand Bob]

MT, the Artisan Toro is a great machine and you could do a lot worse.  I have a very old Boss and a late model AeroStitch, one of the last ones they produced, and can get along with them.  I use the Boss primarily for lighter needles and thread stitching while the Aero now gets very little use.  I keep thinking the Aero might one day be an emergency backup to the Toro but eventually will probly make it an Ebay item.  It lacks many of the refinements that can be found on most power machines and the factory instructions were really skimpy for first time machine users.  It actually started performing better for me as I got familiar with the Toro and started applying that knowledge to the Aero.

My wife bought me my Toro after hearing me complain about tender fingers and confounded Tippmans for a long while.  The transition from hand sewing was not an easy one and I still have trouble realising that with a machine you have to stay totally focused or the project is ruined in a heart beat.  The answer to your dreams comes when you look at a size 50 belt that requires a full liner, 30 sewn cartridge loops and you promised it tomorrow!

[Marshal Will Wingam]

There's good information in this thread so I added it to the list in the FAQ/supplier thread.

[Marshal Tac]

THANKS PARDS! This is EXACTLY the information I was looking for. It sounds like I might be working on saving some more money over a little longer time frame and going with a powered machine, if they are that much of an improvement over the hand operated Tippman.

When initially looking at them, I thought that the hand operated Boss would allow me a shollower learning curve and more control/precision, being that it was slower and hand operated vs. automatic.

My wife likes to sew clothing, and has a very nice standard sewing machine, so if I end up with a powered machine, I am sure she could help teach me how to use it, if it is at all similar to a standard machine.

I'd love to hear any more comments about one machine over the other. I want to meet my needs without either spending far more than I have to or ending up with a machine that is overly complicated and doesn't get used.

As for hand stiching..... I agree that a hand stich is stronger and adds the detail of hand-craftsmanship, but it is slow and limits the weight of leather that I can use in my projects due to my hand strength. (one holster using 10-12 oz. leather and my hands hurt for a week!  )

[Slowhand Bob]

Between no machine and the BOSS, I'll take that there Boss eveytime.  Used prices have gotten pretty low, if your willing to be patient and shop around.  It is actually a heavy duty little machine with its good points and its shortcomings.  A year or so back some were wanting to know if it would lend itself to being motorised.  I would not think this would have been my recommendation but a foot pump connection could be the answer to most of its shortcomings in my mind.  Lacking a better manual machine, I would replace my BOSS if it ever becomes necessary, and thats even though I have a good quality power machine.     

There are reeeal cheep JUKI copies everywhere now, made who knows where by who knows who, but I know nothing about their quality.  I have seen copies for well under $2000, watch Ebay under 'leather sewing machines'. 

[outrider]

MT:

If I remember correctly the Ferdco Pro-2000 can sew with thread as small as #69, which is commonly used in upholstry, especially auto seat covers.  I am not sure about the Adler or the Artisan..but they should be able to do the smaller size also.

Ferdco also makes a neat hand operated machine which is called the Pro6/6 (but can also be motorized if needed), and also a "Baby Bull" which has a smaller throat length.

[Buck Stinson]

I have an Adler 205-64 light harnes and saddle machine that I bought new in 1987.  Way back then, I paid $3250.00 for it but the Adler reputation was as good as you could get and still is.   In the past 20 years, I've run over 240 pounds of thread through this machine and it has never skipped a beat.  I keep it clean, well olied and replace the needle once a week.  The only other part I've ever replaced was the bobbin tension plate, which at the time was around $9.00.  Even if I retired tomorrow, I'll never sell the machine.

Adios,
Buck

[outrider]

Howdy Buck:

I agree with you on the Adler 205.  When I was looking at the different modles available I choose the Ferdinand because it had a 16" throat, which is what I was looking for...If I ever buy a second machine it will be an Adler 205

[Buck Stinson]

My 205 has a 13" throat which gives more than enough room for large items like saddle skirts, saddle pockets and pommel bags.

Adios,
Buck 

[outrider]

Howdy Pards:

My biggest problem with the Tippman Boss, was trying to sew bullet loops onto a gunbelt...one hand trying to hold the loop and the belt in alignment while the other operated the machine...then when you rotated the belt  ...oh boy..  try to get a 45" heavy belt to turn through a small 8"throat.  After some trial and error making loops with the Ferdanand it is now very easy and fast..you can align and operate at the same time and turning is no chore at all.  Would be the same for the Adler and the Artisan.

I have tiouched the Tippman is months...might as well just take it down off the bench...could use the room.