Chaparral M'1876 Winchester NWMP carbine ....

[RattlesnakeJack]

Well, friends, just yesterday I discovered, quite unexpectedly, that the long-awaited NWMP (North West Mounted Police) carbine version of the Chaparral Arms' reproduction Model 1876 Winchester rifle is now actually in production.  When I first learned some months ago that this project was going ahead, I made up my mind I had to get one when they became available. 

I also learned that the very few carbines in the first shipment have long been sold, and that a second shipment of only six more of them is on its way to the exclusive U.S. distributor - Scott Meyer/'Sixgun Shorty' of Nevada Western Firearms (http://www.nevadawesternfirearms.com:80/) ..... and I was able to score one!   

These carbines are apparently a very faithful recreation of the original NWMP carbines (except for the earliest few, which had some weaknesses and problems corrected in later shipments) - these repros are in the original .45-75 chambering, and have a proper round barrel with "Spanish Meter" rear sight, musket-style forestock, with serial numbers in the same range as the original NWMP carbines, and they are even marked in the appropriate location on the buttstock with a NWMP cartouche ... here are a few images of a sample carbine (click on each thumbnail to enlarge) -











Well .... that's the good news - the bad news is that I and the only other Canadian purchaser so far (who is the person who alerted me to the availability of the carbines) will likely be waiting in the order of two or three months before we actually receive our rifles ...       (Lest you assume that this delay is the result of Canadian gun laws, I should note that it is actually almost entirely the result of U.S. export restrictions on firearms which came into effect after 9/11 ...    )

[Hell-Er High Water]

Rattlesnake Jack,

I received my M'1876 NWMP carbine late last week from Scott.  He called a week ago Monday morning and said that he was in the middle of shipping it and packing all his wordly possesions that he and his wife could get into his cars and getting ready to evacuate the Lake Tahoe blaze if need be.  Fortunatly he made it through OK.  Much luckier than a lot of folks.

When I shot with him, and purchased it, at the Western States Shoot in Fernley, NV at the end of May, Scott indicated that only a small amount of these were going to be built (approx 100) and that they were being built for him exclusivly.  He apparently did all the footwork at getting the details to Chapparal and may have even sent them an original as a pattern (I don't know this for a fact but I suspect it may be so).

The fit and finish are good and the wood, although very plain, looks to be real walnut with a dull oil finish.  I have not had a chance to shoot it yet but dummy cartridges cycle through the magazine and action without any problems.  The details that you note in you post are all there.

When I get a chance to get out and shoot it I'll report back. Right now I am assembling dies, components and loading data.

HHW

[River City John]

Very nice!

[Deadeye Don]

Very nice looking carbine indeed.  That looks much more manageable to carry around than the full size 1876.  I am guessing it wont be too long before Uberti jumps on the band wagon and produces their own version.   Safe shooting.  Deadeye.

[RattlesnakeJack]

If I have not mistaken what I've been told, Chaparral will likely be adding this carbine configuration to their regular line, though then it will be minus the "special features" of these early production models (i.e. at least they won't be serial-numbered in the original NWMP range and won't bear the NWMP cartouche) ....

It'll be hard to wait for this new toy!     Especially since I'll probably be in possession of all the makings for loading well before having the carbine in my hands ....   

The fellow in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, who alerted me to the fact that these rifles are now finally in production (as opposed to our Cas City pard Sir Charles deMoutonBlack, who first let me know that they were going to be made)  followed up with an e-mail alerting me to an eBay auction for two sets of new Lee .45-75 "Very Limited Production" loading dies for the very reasonable "But It Now" price of US$30.50 - when I got there, one set was sold and I snapped up the other set.  (I then checked and found that the first buyer was also a Canadian, so I assume it was him - couldn't tell for sure, and I haven't yet heard back from him on my e-mail query to that effect when I thanked him for the "heads up".

Also, I was just talking to a local cowboy action shooter last night, who believes he still has a suitable bullet mould available for sale .... he used to have a .45-75 rifle (original Winchester) but balked at the US$110 (or so) price of the only dies then available, and thus eventually let the rifle go.

And brass is certainly now being made again by Jamison, and also possibly by Starline (haven't checked that out yet), though I gather it sells out fairly fast when a run of it is made, undoubtedly due to the .45-75 repros now on the market ....

[Bull Schmitt]

I noticed a warning posted on the SASSWire about the front pin that holds the toggle links shattering. As I understand it this not only can release the front ends of the toggle links but also release the piece the keeps the firing pin from coming out the back of the breech block. I have not heard of an fix or replacement for the pin but it should't be too hard to fix.

[Icebox Bob]

Well I'm the other guy   

Scott at Nevada western Firearms has a fix from Chaparral and details were posted, but I will have to check where. Basically new better quality pins.  Its not clear if the problems are limited to a specific batch or what. 

I just sent off the information to get the US export Canadian import started on My '76.

Icebox

[RattlesnakeJack]

Howdy, Icebox!

Are you new to Cas City, or is that single post just indicative of "lurker" status?   

Yes, pards ... Icebox Bob is the fellow who alerted me to the fact that these NWMP carbines are now in production, and gave me the lowdown on Sixgun Shorty's Nevada Western Firearms being the exclusive distributor ....  Not only that, but he also later e-mailed me the "heads up" about an eBay offering of two sets of Lee "Very Limited Production" .45-75 loading dies for a very decent "buy it now" price of $30.50 each, which I promptly acted upon!  (Well, actually, it was only one set by then, 'cause Icebox had snagged the first set already ... ) 

Haven't met Icebox in person yet (he's located at Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, which is about 300 road miles northeast of Medicine Hat) but he definitely seems to be an hombre to ride the river with!

Bob, I got all my info off to the import/export outfit (... assume you're using Questar, also?) on Friday ...   Let me know if you locate the information on the "fix" for that problem ... if it even is still a problem ...

[Icebox Bob]

The details on the pin is here - http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72417&hl=76
The topic title is "WARNING, serious problem with Chaparral 1876, Must read if you own one of these guns".

And yes I have sent everything to Questar that I can, at this point in time.  Now the courier people and government agencies must grind away.

Doesn't look good for me to get to Fort Kush on the long weekend but three of our local compadres have been planning to go for a long time. It will be their first exposure to a full SASS event.  I'm thinking about your Thanksgiving event....

Hobie, on Leverguns, has been nudging/hinting/prodding  for as many pictures as possible of '76's in use and I have a couple more links I will be posting there shortly.

I have a printout from a couple of years ago of the price for a set of 45-75 dies that had to be special ordered - over $200.00.  Nice that some things have become more available for them.

Back later,
Icebox

[Hell-Er High Water]

Here is the answer from Scott Meyer of Nevada Western Firearms to my question regarding the forward link problem.

"The whole matter of the forward toggle link pin has been greatly overblown..it has happened on only 5 guns out of 1000+.  Absolutly continue to shoot your carbine... IF the pin breaks, all that will happen is that the action will sieze up.. NOT EXPLODE!!!  I had it happen..the pin will only break, if it does, and I doubt it will, when you try to lever the gun and find the lever will not move.  This problem has been addressed to the factory in Italy.  ...........if you want to have an extra on hand..........at Charter and he will send you one.  Roscoe Coles, in his post, greatly exaggerated the consequences of a broken pin....the firing pin will not explode in your face..!"

I have been shooting my NWMP carbine with no problems and will continue to shoot it.  I have requested a spare pin as I like to keep spare parts on hand for all of my firearms and will also order parts that are subject to loss or breakage like small screws and springs.

HHW

[Hobie]

Good morning.  Not usually one to revive dead topics, I felt this was best in this situation.  I've been cruising the net looking for updated links on the subject of 1876 .45-75s and stopped by here.  I've accumulated some information since buying my NWMP SRC last March (!) and thought I might share with those who don't visit the Leverguns forum. 

BTW, the original forum is back.  Come visit!

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Hobie, I wish your links worked.

[Top Kick Ken]

Hey Pards,



For those who can't get the links to work..Man they were messed up...I really don't know what I did..but these will work. 

"Accumulated Information  http://home.comcast.net/~parslowb/labels/45-75.html%22

"Temporary Quarters  http://sixshootercommunity.com/leverguns/viewforum.php?f=1%22
Hope this helps,

Top Kick Ken
Sergeant Major, Department of the Pacific
Grand Army of the Frontier

[RattlesnakeJack]

Unfortunately, I still can't seem to get into the comcast site .....

On the other hand, thought I might post that my NWMP carbine arrived a while ago - just the day before I departed for my trip to the GAF Muster in Iowa so, what with last minute preparations and packing, I only had a brief opportunity to fondle it.  And I've been too darn busy since getting back!  However, this evening I took a few pictures of my li'l darling -

(Click to enlarge)







In case anyone is interested, this is the full title of the map used as background  -


... and a detail from it, showing Medicine Hat and environs ....

[Hobie]

Hobie, I wish your links worked.

I fixed it.  The forum software apparently attempts to write code for me and inserted additional http:// in the url.  All works now!

[RattlesnakeJack]

Although this particular configuration of the Model 1876 Winchester is generally known as the North West Mounted Police carbine (and Chaparral's repro's are specifically marketed as such) it is not so well known that the same rifles saw military issue in Canada, as well.  During the North West Rebellion of 1885, these repeating rifles were issued to the Cavalry units serving with the North West Field Force (replacing their standard-issue single-shot Snider-Enfield carbines) and also to volunteers in various mounted provisional militia units raised in the Territories, such as the Rocky Mountain Rangers, Boulton's Mounted Infantry, French's Scouts, etc.

Here is a period photograph of a tent squad of an Ontario cavalry regiment, The Governor-General's Body Guard (still in existence today as The Governor-General's Horse Guards), in camp at Humboldt, District of Saskatchewan, in which several of their '76 Winchesters are clearly visible .... (click thumbnail to enlarge)

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I have a bootleg photocopy of SMALL ARMS OF THE MOUNTED POLICE, by Phillips & Kirby of the Museum Restoration Service.

It says that 846 Winchesters were actually issued to the Force.  A bit more than 500 were issued to the Militia.  After the Winchester was retired in 1914, an estimated 200 were disposed of to the Alberta Provincial Police and The Legion Of Frontiersmen and may be also marked "APP" or "LOF".  Some carbines actually issued during the Northwest Rebellion to the force were not stamped in the haste to get them in the hands of the mounties.

I have had my carbine for awhile but have been waiting for CH to run off some more dies.  Apparently they are at the heat treating sevice now.  Meanwhile, LEE has theirs available & I will get a set from Higginson Powders Inc. for $40  CAD.

Where do I get cases?  .348 WCF cases have .0 70 thick rims.  Can I merely resize .348 cases or do the rims have to be thinned.  What about the Buffalo cases?  Starline have NOT stepped up to the plate yet.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Sir Charles:

I got my cases from Gad Custom Cartidges, trimmed to length and formed for initial loading (they will fireform
to the final configuration):
http://www.gadcustomcartridges.com/

As I understand it the difference in rim thickness is not a problem - at least I don't think that has been altered on
the cases I received, and they chamber just fine with no difficulty in locking up the action.  If anything, I understand that
the somewhat smaller rim diameter of the .348 (i.e. 0.610" as opposed to 0.620" minimum through 0.629"
maximum for the .45-75 can result in the odd problem with positive extractor engagement.

I also gather that the very slightly smaller base diameter of the .348 (i.e. 0.553" just ahead of the rim, versus 0.563 for
the .45-75, so the difference is only a hundredth of an inch) may result in an apparent slight bulge ahead of the solid
web of the head, once fireformed to the ,45-75 chamber, but that is at most a cosmetic thing only .....

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I finally got my dies for the 45-75.   They are LEEs through Higginson Powders in Hawksbury Ontario, (formerly Ammomart)

So.  I had some .348 cases partially converted to .43 Spanish.  I made up a couple to .45-75.  The stock .348 rims seem to work in my carbine, but they don't fit the #23 shellholder that comes with the dies.  I substituted the #8 holder for the standard .45-70 and that seems to do the trick. 

The lightest .458 cast bullet I have is the Gould hollow point.  To make the 2.25 oal required I would have to crimp over the front driving band.  To fit the crimp groove on the Gould bullet the case would have to be shortened to 1.76 from 1.86. What works?   Should I get the short flat base LEE mould?  How long can I make the oal?

Is anyone going to make proper cases, or do we have to use converted .348s?

[RattlesnakeJack]

Experienced exactly the same problem (and found the same solution) with the shell holder ... 

I seem to recall reading that the cartridge OAL is fairly critical in the 1876 action but, in the hope of avoiding both 'overshortening' the cases and crimping over the front driving band, I'd just try to load a few with a greater OAL and see how they cycle (and if they chamber fully, which could be another issue with a longer cartridge.)  If not, just pull the bullets and you haven't lost much but a little time ....

On the other hand, since the minimum case length given in the above specs is 1.80", I can't see that shortening the cases to 1.76" would be too problematic.  Alternatively, since that is only a 0.04" difference, maybe you could 'combine solutions' (i.e. shorten to 1.80" plus seat the bullet as deep as possible without actually crimping on or over the driving band) to stay within the 2.25" OAL limit ....

Ideally, getting actual .45-75 brass would be very nice.  However, as far as I am aware, Jamison is still the only manufacturer currently set up to do them, and they are apparently still tied up with their government contract ....  Mind you, it has been reported on the British Militaria Forums (by the moderator, who set up a group buy through Ten-X Ammunition, of Jamison-made .577 Snider and .577/.450 Martini Henry cases) that he gathers from his ongoing contact with Ten-X that they were rather fed up with some quality control issues at Jamison, as well as the supply problems arising from the government contract, and are turning to some other manufacturer for future case production.  Since Ten-X manufactures loaded .45-75 ammo (in both smokeless and black powder loadings, and both .458" and .456" bullet diameters, I see) perhaps we could try to find out from them if they have another source for .45-75 brass.

Unfortunately, I suspect that it is not an option for us to try to get loaded ammunition from Ten-X shipped to us in Canada ... otherwise we could "bite the bullet" and buy some, in order to have the cases for re-loading. I wonder if any of our U.S. pards who shoot .45-75, but don't load their own, would be willing to sell us their once-fired cases??