Coverting .45LC to .44 Henry Flat, photos

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Halfway
Here is what I have done so far...removing the barrel was easy....
the insert has been chambered to .44 colt and is made out of 1/2 inch 4140 round stock.
I'll re-install the barrel tomorrow and take it for a test drive. If you have any questions.....fire away....

Bill

Insert after chambering to .44 colt

Another view

Final fitting before silver soldering in place

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Continued from above.....

Bill

Insert silver soldered in place

Final clean up with reamer

Chambered dummy round

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Final photo showing bolt fit to breech end of barrel. Sorry its not as clear as the other photos.

Bill

[Dusty Morningwood]

Dang it you two!  Now ya got me thinkin' again and that is a very dangerous thing. 

[Will Ketchum]

Bill, are you leaving the bore 45?

Will Ketchum

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Ya sure are fast there Bill. Fun when a good idea comes to fruition.
Lots of questions.
Did you leave the insert .500 or did you machine it down some?
Is that paste Silver Solder that's on the end of the insert?
Did you machine the insert off or leave it 2 Inches in Length. I know you had to machine the breech end off some after insertion and soldering.
Did you machine the original breech dia larger?

From the ministrations I did last night(See the 44 'Cycle thru the 45LC thread) I don't think you'll need to do anything to your block. Mine works with 44 Russian brass and the modified bullets, the 44 Spcl brass and the 44 Colt brass as well.

WK,
The bullet OCB is using is the 248 Grn .451 Dia outside lubed heeled bullet from Old West Moulds that is modified to be flatter on the nose. This should get the weight down to about what the 44 Henry Flat bullet was. Bernie Knowles is making him a mould for the modified bullet and I'll get one too as soon as I get mine converted.

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Bill, are you leaving the bore 45?

Will Ketchum

Will,
Yes the bore is going to stay 45 since I am using a 45 heeled bullet. By the way, I need your address, since you still have dial up I'm gonna send you a couple of CD's

Halfway,
Yes the insert is .500, all I did was polish it up.

Yes that is Brownell's paste silver solder (1250 degrees). You heat the insert until the solder runs the full length of the chamber. You'll need a torch to do this step.

The insert is 1/8 inch longer then the overall length of the bullet, about the length of the original chamber.

I used my chambering reamer to bring it down even with the breech end. The notches for the ejector were hand filed until the ejector was able to grab the rim of the case.

I drilled out the original .45 Colt chamber with a 31/64 drill and then finished it out with a half inch chucking reamer.

Because the length of the cartridge with the .248 grain bullet is almost as long as the .45 Colt, It should function fine without any modification to the elevator block.

Bill

[Grizzly Adams]

Now that's pretty neat!

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Loaded up 30 rounds of the Henry Flat today and did a test in the back yard (ten acres)...the gun ran flawlessly without the modification to the loading block. I think the overall length of the cartridge being almost as long as the .45 LC makes the modification unnecessary if you shot a round close to the original.

Bill

[Buffalow Red]

so what is the benifit or advantage to all that fine work

[Black River Smith]

OCB,

Slick and congrats.  Nice obtion.

[stepnmud]

very impressive and neat job. I'd like to hear more about the barrel removal. Had considered converting a 44-40 Henry to 44 special & 44 Russian and at one time found a chamber insert. The 31/64 bit with clean up .500 reamer sounds good. Will a hand held propane MAPP torch be hot enough for the silver solder? Have a shop heavy duty bench vise and can make barrel blocks. Do have any advice for the barrel removal?

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

BR,
Both Bill And I have pistolas chambered in 44 Colt(Rem/Colt C.F.) (heeled outside lubed ,451 Dia bullet) that'll shoot the same cartridges now as the Henry.

I'm still torn between using the 44 Colt Brass, the 44 Spc.l Brass or the Russian brass.

44 Russian brass is very, very close to the dimensions of the original 44 Henry Flat long C.F. Cartridge. (.072 longer)
I cannot use that cartridge in my Original Remy Conversions because the rims are too big a dia., but when I shoot Frontiersman I'll be using C &B pistolas so the rifle cartridge will be stand alone anyway. Perhaps I'll set mine up to chamber both or all three. The Russian cartridge will have just a bit of chamber in front of it before hitting the rifling.....pretty much like a pistola chamber to breech. There's just something about resurrecting a cartridge of the past.

The only thing that might need to be changer to be able to chamber all three cases is the angle on the block may need to be worked on to reliably cycle the short 44 Russian Cartridges. The 44 Colt and the 44 Spcl, cycle fine. The 44 Colt will extraxt fine also once I get the sleeve installed and the extractor notches cut right.

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

so what is the benifit or advantage to all that fine work

BR.....Very simple answer.....I am into the history and accuracy of the old west and it's portrayal. Since the Henry was never chambered in 44/40 or 45 Long Colt, I wanted a cartridge closer to the original which this chambering does except for not being rim fire. If I could have found 44 rim fire brass, I would have modified the bolt for a rim fire firing pin, which would be real easy to do by the way.

very impressive and neat job. I'd like to hear more about the barrel removal. Had considered converting a 44-40 Henry to 44 special & 44 Russian and at one time found a chamber insert. The 31/64 bit with clean up .500 reamer sounds good. Will a hand held propane MAPP torch be hot enough for the silver solder? Have a shop heavy duty bench vise and can make barrel blocks. Do have any advice for the barrel removal?

Stepnmud...I ground the jaws on a 4 inch pipe wrench smooth so not to mar the octagonal barrel. I removed all the innards from the receiver, put the side plates back on.

Put the receiver in the vice between two pieces of 1/4 inch heavy saddle leather and removed the barrel in the traditional manner...very easy.

I don't know if MAPP gas will get hot enough to make the solder run, remember, I used 1250 degree silver solder paste, I have an acetylene torch set-up so thats what I used.

I suppose you could use a lower temp solder and it would work just fine. If you decide to go that route, make sure you degrease the outside of the insert and also the chamber of the barrel.

You want to make your insert about a quarter of an inch longer then when it is finished, it makes the soldering job easier.

Bill

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Both Bill And I have pistolas chambered in 44 Colt(Rem/Colt C.F.) (heeled outside lubed ,451 Dia bullet) that'll shoot the same cartridges now as the Henry.

Charley,
To get the longer cartridges to work in your 44 pistols with the longer 45 heeled bullet, you'll have to bore through the chambers in the cylinder, real easy to do, just use your .44 colt chambering reamer and bore through the front of the cylinder.

Bill

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Shoot Bill, I don't have a problem with the length of the brass(they'll both take 44 Colt brass and the 248 Grn heeled bullet just fine...but I have trouble with the larger Dia. Rims of the 44 Spcl, Russian not passing the pawl. (that can be fixed with a reamer).

Both my Original Remy Conversions are recessed for 44 Colt brass so the 44 Spcl, Russian or the 44 Mag cases sit on top of the cylinder and the head space between the recoil plate and the cylinder will not allow the cylinder to spin. They could be made to work, but I really don't want to screw up history just to suit my fancy.

By using the insert and cutting the extractor notches for the 44 Colt brass, then all three will cycle through the rifle, And If I cut the angle of the block back a little, the 44 Russian brass and the new 44 Henry Flat bullets will cycle properly also. They do a tolerable job right now, just not perfect 100% of the time.. So on any given day I can use any of the three cartridges.

Who knows I might just cut .072 off the Russian Brass to be more correct, but none of the three dimensions are a direct match of the 44 Henry Long Flat (RF) C.F. but all are really close........Naw I'm not that anal yet. LOL! I do want to shoot this riflle with the 44 henry long Flat C.F. To get a feel of what it was like and Can I really hit that 100 Yd target with this cartridge. I read somewhere last night that writer(Mike Venturino) equated the 44 Henry Flat C.F. to the .357 Magnum fired in a 4 inch bbl.(1100-1200 FPS). If that is even close to being true, then I can see this rifle reaching out to 200 yd.s. with this cartridge. What fun with this dinky cartridge. But OH! SO COOL!

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Charley,
What I should have referred to is the diameter of the heeled bullet (.451-.452). If your pistols are chambered for the modern .44colt (.429) you'll have to open up the mouths of the chambers (is that the correct term?) for the bigger diameter bullet, otherwise it's gonna shear off some of the lead...

It's not the length. Sorry for the confusion.

Bill

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Nope. The Remington/Colt Conversion Cartridge had the dimensions of the Colt Brass of today, but used the heeled outside lubed bullet of .451 Dia. Drive bands. These were made circa 1871-1895. None were available until Bernie brought them back.
The 1871 Colt 44 Cal Open tops were chambered for the new 44 Colt cartridge that used the .429 bullet

My Remy conversions were originally chambered for the 44 Rem/Colt C.F. with the heeled bullet, as were most all the 44 Cal C & B originals that were converted. They(all MFG.) all had .451-.452 Grooves.

My conversion chambers mic at .460 drilled straight thru. The original Remington cartridge boxes read "For The 1875 Remington and Remington and Colt Conversion Revolvers".

The Remington 46 Cal RF conversions that were later converted to 44 C.F. use recessed rim chambers and will take the larger Dia Rims of the 44 Spcl, Mag, and Russian. 44 Colt brass sometimes are too small dia and are pushed into the chamber and they don't fire properly, especially on those 46 Cal RF that are recessed Rim type. Those that are not recessed will chamber all the brass mentioned.

In all actuality, the conversion we are making to the Henry's are the 44 Rem/Colt C.F. due to the cartridge rim size, length, OAL dimension, powder charge and the heeled bullet, nose modification not withstanding.
I had planned on converting to that cartridge last year when I figured out how little it would take to do the conversion on 45LC lever guns. I talked with Bernie last year about that and now finally we are on the road to get this done. I'm modifying about 300 44 Rem/Colt C.F. I have loaded to the flatter nosed version.

Were any of the Henry's or 1866's converted to 44 Rem/Colt C.F.? I don't know. It seems likely, but I don't have proof and probably never will.
It is amazing how close the 44 Russian brass and the 44 Henry Flat C.F. are. I know of one original henry that the owner thought was chambered for 44 Russian(and it could have been), but with the two cases being almost identical I would surmise that in reality, the conversion was to 44 Henry Long C.F. Yes there was a 44 Henry Long C.F. but it was called the 44 Henry C.F. and the dimensions of the brass is equal to the 44 Henry Flat Long brass.

Ok. How much FFG can we stuff in the Russian cases? I intend to find out shortly.

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Charley,
Good to hear you've got the right cylinder dimensions.

One new Item, I contacted Starline Brass to see what the price breakdown would be for a new case head stamp using the existing 44 colt cartridge with the head stamp "44 Henry Flat" on it. Might as well go all the way...right??

Bill

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Don't print that when I'm drinking....iced tea up the nose HURTS!.

Why not? I'd like some of the 44 Russian printed with that too. I suppose once they get the head stamp, they could put it on anything. They have one for the Black hills ammo.

Is this getting out of hand?

Here are the dummy (except the last one)cartridges I have made up.



   Brass:           44 Russian/            44 Colt/               44 Special/                44 Rem/Colt C.F.
   Bullet:         44 Henry Flat         44 Henry Flat         44 Henry Flat      44 Rem before modifying the point

The first is the closest physically to the 44 Henry Flat C.F. but it holds the least powder. The 44 Colt brass will hold 28 Grn.s BP like
the 44 Rem/Colt C.F. The 44 Spcl a bit less more.