pressures of various loads/BP vs. smokeless

[65bsaA65]

According to the IMR smokeless powder guide I've got, there are several .45 colt rounds (various bullet weights and powder charges; trailboss) that run 8,100 to 9,400 psi.  In the Hodgen muzzleloading manual there are 2 triple 7 loads, 8,500 and 9,500 cup respectively.  The trailboss loads are in the starting range, the 777 are specified as maximum loads.  Are these loads within the safety margins of a 58 Uberti Rem. clone with an R&D con. cylinder?  Is there any way to set up a true ratio of psi vs. cup?  I can't find any data on BP pressures: From what I've learned from this forum a maximum load of BP would be 35-37 grains in a .45 colt round in a Remi. conversion.  I'm going boar hunting this fall; planning on shooting the pig with a .54 Hawken I've got laying around.  But I want a good sidearm just in case, and my choices are limited; either the Remi con. or my old model 11.  Since I'm gonna shoot the pig with a muzzle loader, I'd kinda like to use the Remi, with a 250 grain bullet.  Anybody got a good, safe hunting load?  Does anyone know what the maximum pressure limits on Remi. clones are?
 

[hellgate]

I really can't help you. One of the problems with pressure comparisons is because BP tends to produce much lower pressures therefore a softer metal is used to be crushed to measure the pressure. The L.U.P. (lead units or pressure) is often used for BP internal ballistics. The C.U.P. (copper units of pressure) for the smokeless. I do not know where you can find the translation into PSI so it all make sense. So far, it's apples and oranges.

[Dick Dastardly]

First, does the gun say "black powder only"?

Second, does the cylinder say "black powder only"?

The pressure curves on black powder vs smokeyless powder are entirely different.  Think of it like ringing a bell with a wood hammer (black powder) vs ringing that same bell with a steel hammer (smokeyless powder).  Both hammers weigh the same,  Ya swing 'em both the same, which one is hardest on the bell?

Comparing black powder explosions vs smokeless powder burns is very difficult in relationship to the strength of the gun.  Guns and gun parts made for smokeless powder ammo are made to completely different standards than guns and parts for black powder need to be.

All that said, there are pards out there shooting heathen fad smokeyless ammo thru their Ruger Old Armies with Kirst Konversion cylinders.  Ruger doesn't condone it and neither does Kirst, in fact they caution against it.  But, it's being done.

Good luck.

DD-DLoS

[Fox Creek Kid]

Comparing BP & smokeless pressures is analagous to comparing a gallon of feathers to a gallon of lead. I know several people who EVERY year asked me something along the lines of "is it OK to shoot smokeless in my original 1887?" or "can I shoot smokeless in my 1st gen. Colt?" Finally, I said to them "why do you keep me asking me when you have no intention of shooting anything but smokeless?" Funny, they don't ask me anymore. The Internet is replete with catastrophic failure of BP guns shot with smokeless yet people still do it. Oh I almost forgot, when a newcomer asks me this question at the local range I just smile and tell them that there has been incredible leaps & bounds in the medical field as regards prosthetic devices! 

[Dick Dastardly]

I'm thinkn' that generally this question is asked when the answer is known, but a "loophole" is being sought.  That loophole could look like "so and so said it was ok and he knows all about it".

When somebody wants to do something that's outside the placarded limits of a product, they may be looking for absolution of personal responsibility.  No such luck with myself.  If a shooter wants to shoot smokeless powder in black powder guns, I'm not going to say it's ok.  Now, if that shooter wishes to go out and experiment and report his findings here, I'll read them and appreciate his effort.

In other words, if ya want to have a go at smokeless powder in black powder guns, have your will up to date and your medical insurance paid up.  Take frequent notes and photos.  If it works, the risk is your own.  If it doesn't, the risk is still your own.

Good luck,

DD-DLoS

[65bsaA65]

So, gentlemen, I can conclude from these posts that I should stay away from the smokeless in my Remi.  That's not a problem.  Back to the other part of my question; a good hunting load in the R&D con. cyl. with BP.  Any info will be appreciated.

[hellgate]

Actually, the risk FOR THE MOST PART is their own but we often shoot in group situations and a bystander (RO, spotter, dumb little kid, etc.) could be killed or injured by flying metal. So, I'd also suggest an "umbrella" liability insurance policy. I'd bet if you asked the insurance folks if they'd cover said situation they  might not. Especially if you knew it was an improper use.

[Fox Creek Kid]

As someone who worked in insurance for a few years the range would probably be sued as well if someone's gun "grenaded", especially if someone warned them of another person shooting an unsafe gun. The person whose gun "grenaded" would be sued on his home owner's insurance BUT if they were using reloads it might be dicey. I've seen one revolver "grenade" and it wasn't pretty, BUT what was even SCARIER was once I was in a group of CAS smokeless shooters who were talking about their progressive reloading errors in the past!!    Every time I ever shot with one of them after that I always put something solid between their gun & myself when they shot. A progressive reloading press is like a nuclear weapon in the hands of some of these nabobs!!

[rickk]

Putting all this pressure discussion aside for a minute...

P.O.ed pigs are mean and tough to kill.

You would be better suited to find a .357 Blackhawk or a Security Six.... the later being generally cheaper because they are in less demand.

To be perfectly honest, I have several of each and would probably take the Security 6 (in 6 inch barrel of course). Good condition would be $225-250-ish in blue, 25 more for stainless.

While Single action is cool, if you are messing with something that your rifle coundn't kill, you want something that will keep you from being in even more trouble. With a little practice, you should be able to get 6 hits in 6 inches at 25 feet in under 3 seconds. That is pretty typical "steel plate" performance.

This is not to say that a single action couldn't do the job as well, but it would take a bit more practice.

[Adirondack Jack]

777 won't blow up yer remmie.  I'd suggest a load with very little or no compression and a 250 and use it as a "finisher" on the hogs.  Truth be told, unless ya run into hogzilla, most any hog can be taken with a 1911 and GI ball, and yer 777 and a 250 is every bit what GI ball is.  That said, a RIFLE is probably smarter, especially since wounded hogs sometimes take a chunk out of whoever poked a hole in em.

[65bsaA65]

Thanks, Rickk and Andiorndack Jack for the input.  I am going to use a rifle as primary arm---a .54 cal. Hawken with a 425 grain great plains bullet backed by a 100 grains of BP.  I have found this combo to be quite accurate; the rifle is rated for a max loading of 120 grains, but accuracy suffers if I go up, and the recoil does too.  This load has accounted for 3 deer in the past few years; all shoulder shots and they dropped like pole-axed.  I know pigs are tougher to kill than deer; and get reall unhappy if you just wound them. 
I will load up some 777 rounds for the Remi. and see what kind of accuracy I get; hell, it'll give me more stuff to shoot.  It'll be the Remi. or the 1911 as a back-up; whichever I'm more consistent with.
Will be hunting in heavy brush; lots of deadfalls and other cover, so ranges will be short.  My hunting partner will be using a 12 guage w/rifled slug barrel.  He's real green, don't think he's ever killed anything bigger than a mosquito, so I expect to CHA.  If I get a righteous hog, will post pics.

[Dick Dastardly]

Pards, Gentlemen all,

I didn't mean to pour water on the campfire.  The R&D product is made of fine steel.  But, simply put, you're on your own with smokeless loads in it.  I like what AJ said.  Tripple 7 will give you plenty of energy and won't "void the warranty".  If you are very comfortable with that gun, that can make the difference.

In a crunch situation, thinking about the gun takes time.  Time is the stuff life is made out of, or lost because of the lack of.  Shoot what works for you.

DD-DLoS

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

R&D conversion cylinders are made of pre hardened 4150 arsenal grade steel. That is not the same type or grade of steel that percussion cylinders are made of. Taylors, the main distributor for R&D plainly states that R&D cylinders are safe to shoot with Smokeless 'cowboy' loads. The main pressure vessel of any revolver is the cylinder. The cylinder has a much thinner cross section of steel at the thinnest point than the barrel wall. Have you ever seen how thin the barrels are on old pencil barrelled Smiths that were designed to shoot Smokeless? They are perfectly safe with normal SAAMI spec smokeless loads. In any overpressure situation, it is the cylinder that will burst before the barrel. If R&D says their cylinders are safe for Smokeless 'cowboy' loads, then the whole gun is.

Any load you find in the 'cowboy' loads section of any loading manual will be safe to shoot in an R&D equipped Remmie.

This does beg the question of pressure though. I have not seen 'cowboy' loads defined in terms of pressure anywhere. However any major ammo manufacturer who markets specific 'cowboy' loads will have done their pressure barrel research to keep the pressure down so the loads will be safe to shoot in any 'cowboy' gun.

This does mean that you will be limiting yourself as far as pressure is concerned, 'cowboy' ammo in a pistol might not be the best choice for a backup gun with large game.

For what it's worth, I regularly shoot my Remmies with their R&D cylinders with 45 Colt stuffed full to the brim with about 35 grains of FFg Goex under a 250 grain bullet. I have no idea what the pressure is, but the velocity is a little bit low, only around 700 fps.

[Adirondack Jack]

Driftwood, yer right.  Of course yer not gonna blow up the R&D with a light cowboy load.

HOWEVER, the pard is asking about some kinda good load for hogs, and I'd caution that although the peak pressure of some loads may be ok, others may use faster powders that spike a little high and still produce relatively little velocity  and therefore e useless for his intended mission.  Who knows, the cylinder and gun MIGHT well withstand "warm" .45 colt recipies above SAAMI yet comonly used in modern clones, etc., but I ain't shootin em, so I ain't gonna recommend he try it.

To be on the safe side, I KNOW 777 FFG will produce enough velocity for the job at hand and do so without pressures he may not want.

[Fox Creek Kid]

FWIW, Elmer Keith wrote that the BEST penetrating "killer" load he ever shot for a .45 Colt was the old Remington 40 gr. BLACKPOWDER factory loading. Even a loading of 30 gr. FFg with a 250 gr. bullet would probably shoot through a buffalo at 25 yds. on a side shot.  Mike Venturino did a test a few years back with BP & smokeless pistol cartridges and for some inexplicable reason the BP rounds penetrated farther than smokeless rounds at the same velocity. That kid who just shot the giant hog all over the Internet shot it over 10 times with a .500 S&W!! For a hog you need a large penetrative bullet. Take a Bowie knife as a backup & think of the great story it will make when you have to wrestle the boar to the ground and slit its throat! 

[rickk]

If you really want to us a BP handgun as a backup, and want to get off cheap, maybe consider a CVA 45 cal single shot pistol, or something similiar. You can safely load it like a 45 cal rifle. Muzzle energy will be less that a rifle, but it will wamp a revolver way much.

Ya, it's not as cool as a revolver, but a BP revolver was really designed as a secondary weapon. In the 1860's, you didn't hunt with one - it was used to keep you alive when nothing else was available. If you could reach your shotgun, that was what you grabbed for first.

Sure, in battle against lots of humans, 6 shots would certainly be better than one, but critters are way more tolerant of pain than people. BP revolvers do tend to jamb now and then. You are pretty much guaranteed one shot before it gets iffy. Having a 50-60 grain load of 3F would make that one shot worth way more.

[Wills Point Pete]

 I must have my stupid hat on this morning. You're loading the .54 with a charge of The Holy Black.
Why not fill those cases up with that same Holy Black , enough to where the powder is nicely compressed, drop a 250 grain lead slug on top, about one to twenty tin/lead. Light it with a mag primer and you're in business. Our grandfathers killed a lot of testy range steers and bulls with that combination, more than a few managed to drop a horse that was dragging them.
I can see worrying about a sub if you don't have any real powder but since you do, why fight with subs?

[Adirondack Jack]

The reason for 777 would be very simple.  Ya can safely get more whoopass out of it than almost any real BP load, and certainly more than ya will get with common BP used in in the US.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Hey AJ

I thought the proper spelling of that was 'whupass'.

[Adirondack Jack]

Hey AJ

I thought the proper spelling of that was 'whupass'.

Mebbe so, Driftwood.

Would the downeast folks spell it wuhpass?