Spencer Magazine Feed comparison

[SpencerSporter]

Has anyone else noticed that most of the available reproductions don't load all that well compared to an original with vintage cartridges. Am I just having loading issues or perhaps ammunition sizing issues? or does anyone else feel the modern reproductions seem a bit lacking in this area?


Thanks

Mike

[Two Flints]

SpencerSporter,

You might want to explain in more detail the feeding problems you are having with your Spencer. Letting the SSS members know what cartridges you are using, size, OAL, etc. and any other information you can provide, might help them to help you with your feeding difficulties.

Two Flints

[SpencerSporter]

Good idea, I'm using starline brass, and buffalo arms bullets, OAL is right on 1.5" a little short of the 1.6 and change in flaydermans, but the Buffalo arms bullets aren't rounded off, so I figure its pretty close on the rest.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I am assuming you are using 56-50 Taylor's.  The 1.5 is your problem.  If the round is too short, it allows the next round to come too far into the action so that you block when it rotates up to chamber the round, it is hitting the case of the second round, instead of glancing off the ogive of the second round and sliding past.  1.5 might work with a blunt bullet better than one that is steeply tapered, as it is more a function of where the bullet ogive meets the top cartridge guide rather than true OAL.

ie: a short, blunt bullet  (like a U) will engage the the guide sooner than a faster taper bullet (like a V), so even though the OAL length is the same, the blunt with the wider ogive sets back faqther than a pointed.

If I use a short, blunt rapine with a short, wide ogive, the overall length is shorter than a modified Lee which is a longer bullet.  The cartridge guide engages the ogives at about the same distance from rim, however, so they feed equally.

[Fox Creek Kid]

People, I think it's something other than OAL. I just measured my 56-50 rounds and they are 1.50 - 1.505 using the Rapine 350-T bullet and mine feeds like a well oiled Vickers gun.

[Bead Swinger]

Hi y'all
I don't mean to sound like a mechanical geek, but OAL is only part of the problem. I propose the following reason for why vintage, spire-point rim-fire rounds will feed in the Spencer significantly better than modern rounds:  The Point. Modern rounds don't (can't) have them.

The point on the bullet means that there is that additional 1/8" (or whatever) spacing between the round being forced up by the magazine spring and the round being forced forward (grabbed) by the block.  This extra spacing helps reduce the probability of a jam in (at least) two distinct ways:

1) <i>Double-feeding</i>: When the cartridges from the magazine are allowed to push their way freely into the action (e.g., the block is rolled back and down and is now out of the way) then the first cartridge will stop on the ramp (hopefully), and the second round is a little further back, giving more room for the leading edge of the block to come up between the two rounds, allowing the face of the block to push the first round forward, and the top of the block to keep the point of the second round behind it.  One of the more common cycling jams occurs when the second round is a little too far forward, and the leading edge of the block catches the second round and jams it.

2) <i>Chambering failure</i>: When the block successfully separates the first and second rounds being fed from the magazine, then the first cartridge also has the possibility of jamming because the cartridge angle is not quite right as the cartridge is forced into the chamber.  If the angle isn't right, the top of the ball is sliding along the top of the chamber wall, and it can jam, particularly if the OAL is off. However, that point means the ball contacts the top of the chamber just a little sooner, and begins to change the angle before there is much ball surface to jam on the chamber wall. While I don't think this is as common as (1), having messed up OAL's enough, I've certainly experienced this. An alternative form of this failure occurs when you have heeled bullets that are too soft, and the cartridge comes apart while you chamber/repeatedly cycle it.

I've never been blessed enough to play with one of the modern Spencers, but in all of the originals I've fired (mostly blanks until recently) double feeding was a real and common problem.  The 1st OH SS manual was really clear about "cycle the action sharply" or something like that, which REALLY makes a big difference in avoiding double feeds.  But essentially all you are doing is racing against the spring that is pusing the cartridges forward. When the block is rotated all the way back, all of the cartridges in the magazine are forced forward until one of two things happen:
1) the operator rotates the block back into place, preventing the rest of the rounds in the magazine from continuing to come forward or
2) the round stops because it hits the slide that has lowered into the action. JAM 
Cycling fast means you get the leading edge of the block to come up between the two rounds before the second round has time to get too far into the action.  The extra distance that the spire point provides gives you more time, and can cycle more slowly without problems.  Also, it means that you can use a stronger spring, and not worry about racing the thing.

I still don't have a clue how period blanks (which are absurdly short) would cycle - they're so light that a regular spring would fling them out really fast, and they're so short that they'd seem to double feed all the time.  Notice that modern blanks are significantly longer than period (original) ones.

[geo]

i found that having the rims beveled on top and bottom improved the feed of the cartridges (please do this with empty cases). good luck, geo.

[Crazeyiven]

My first trials were with starline brass and the buffalo arms bullets.  The bullets I purchased were their 350 gr, .512 very flat point bullet (I understand that it is very much like the rapine bullet).  I tried several OALs from 1.5 to 1.62.  They all jammed, hard.  See the this link...a lot of discussion on this point:http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=14076.0.

Thanks

David

[Bead Swinger]

CrazyIvan
I have to admit, I'm really lazy.  I have an original 56-56 that I use whenever I get a new case to figure out the depth to set the bullets.  Since the original feeds beautifully, I simply set the bullet to a depth where the ogive (curve) matches the original so that my cartridges will engage the guide at the about right length.  It usually works.

Oh - Lawman's comment about the bevel is dead on - but if you're using the Starline 56-60 brass, you should be OK. I recall those have a decent bevel on them.  'Real shame they couldn't have made the rims a few thousandths bigger to feed in 56-56's. 

I might suggest that you ask someone on the list to loan you a few de-primed, 56-50's that feed well in their Spencers, and you try them out in your own.  You can play with your bullets and dies to match them, create something that works, and practice cycling to get them to feed properly.  Besides, it's fun.  You can cycle dummies all you want at home. 

[Crazeyiven]

Bead Swinger-

Thanks for your reply.  It got me to thinking...I have an original 56-50.  May try the same thing (measure, not chambering).

Your post also gave me an idea.  Maybe some of the folks on this site could post what is working for them.

List perhaps:

Mfg of gun
caliber
brass being used
bullet being used (ex. bullet number or perhaps lyman 350 gr .515 etc)
OAL as measured by a caliper or similiar device
As short description of what they consider "working" (ex:  works smooth as empty; works pretty good if you work the lever really hard; etc, etc.

I will collate mine tonight.  Unfortunately all I have are #'s that don't work (except the cut down lee 450 gr .515)

Thanks again for your response

David

[SpencerSporter]

Guys,

     I appreciate all the information. The OAL issue is probably not the biggest one due to the flat points, however the bevel on the rim isn't much there. I might have a weak spring as it seems not to feed all the way into the action before jamming. The bevel might be an important thought as the original rimfires being rounded wouldn't have had the sharp rim issues we have now which has to cause drag and other issues.

Mike

[Crazeyiven]

SpencerShooter-

I missed what rifle you are using....Taylor, Romano, original?

Thanks

David

[Crazeyiven]

My brother passed away a few years ago and his son ended up with all his stuff.  Recently he, my nephew, asked me to help him sort through all the the stuff.  To make a long story short, in all the mess was 4 new, unopened, boxes of 10X 50-56 spencer ammo.  I borrowed one of the boxes to try it out for feeding.  My thoughts were at last I have something that will feed! I have had the gun since Christmas of 2006 and have never fired it due to feeding issues.  Figured if I could not get it to work/feed I could get rid of it as a new gun, unfired.  I still have it because my wife gave it to me for that Christmas, with some considerable effort on her part.  Any way, I took the ammo home and tried it.  First I put one round in - worked perfect.  Put two rounds in - worked perfect again.  Put three rounds in - it locked up, hard, as usual. I was looking at the posts for the above issue to see if any big findings have come up since 2007.  Nothing seems new. One other thing.  One of the boxes had 14 empties.  I showed my nephew what the gun looks like.  He is going to check and see if his dad has/had one.  If so, will see if his feeds.  Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks!
David

[Herbert]

When I bought my AS Spencer rifle I had feeding problems.There were two causes for this(1)the spring for the cartridge guide was too week (2)the main problem was that the cam was too high ,I reduced the height to the same as my original1865 Spencer(.122 inch at center of cam rolling to 0.06 inch at front of the cam)this fixed all feeding problems,it now feeds as well as a original in perfect condition

[KEN S]

I'll add a little about my 65 Burnside carbine 56 50.  TCL is very important.  1.52 to 1.55 works like a dream.  I use the Lyman 350 RNFP at 20  to 1 mix.  softer makes the nose catch and deform. 
trick.  grease the slide where the bullet rides up the ramp to the chamber.  just a little on a small brush after cleaning and I'm set for the next session.  Short bullets catch. right length do not.  actions like a well oiled clock.  they were built right.

    The grease takes care of the feeding catching problem.  NOW<  about my AIM!   oh well   69 yr old eyes....
Ken

[Crazeyiven]

An update to my May post.  My son-in-law purchased the Taylor's Spencer from my nephew.  He brought it over today to have help slugging the bore before he started buying components (4 new boxes of 50 10X factory ammo came with the gun).  While I was gathering up stuff for the slugging he was messing with dozen dummy rounds I made up some time ago for mine.  They all jammed in mine as noted in the May post.  They ran through his like butter.  So, I am guessing that my ammo was fine.  The problem has to be with the gun?!

Have been considering sending it to L. Ramano.  Thoughts or comments welcomed. 

Thanks,

David