Modified Lee Moulds, 450 or 500 - Bullet Photos w/specs on Page 2

[Crazeyiven]

I have been looking through the history here concerning the modified Lee 50 cal moulds.  Most are a couple of years old.  Appears that both the 450 gr and the 500 gr have been modified.  Seems some have a concern about the nose point on the 450 gr modification.  What is the current thoughs on this?  Is the 450 gr modification ok?

I have a Taylors Spencer in 56-50.  I loaded 40 of the BAC purchased bullets (have not decided on a mould yet).  They will not feed with out the most determined lever action.  Enough to make me concerned about breaking something.  Once the bullet gets chambered, the bulled nose is gouged up pretty bad.  Enough to affect accuracy.  I have tried bullet OAL between 1.50 - 1.62 with no apparent change in feeding (bad).

I have both the Lee 450 gr and the 500 gr moulds UNMODIFIED.  I poured a few of each in their original 450 gr and 500 gr weights.  I created a few dummy rounds using a couple each of the bullets, set at 1.62 OAL.  The 500 gr fed only slightly better that the BAC bullets with a tad less bullet deformity.  However, the 450 gr fed through the action like silk...actually it fed as though the gun was empty.

Which brings me back to my question again.  Is the Lee 450 gr modified mould/bullet ok to use?  What is the current thoughts on this from those that have tried them.

Comments, help etc welcome and appreciated.

Thanks

David

[Fox Creek Kid]

Once the bullet gets chambered, the bulled nose is gouged up pretty bad.  Enough to affect accuracy.

Bullet nose damage does not affect accuracry. Bullet base damage does. 

[Black River Smith]

I have cut both molds and one extra mod..  I also enlarge the 450gr nose to 1/4" and reshaped the mold wall to taper bullet body to match new nose.

I fired all three through the Spencer in competition.  I do like the cut down 450gr mold better.  But the nose still cuts.  Also some will state that that 1/8 metplat is too pointy and can set off the leading primer.  ?

I did a complete study on this problem.  The cuts are created because the front/leading bullet slides to the side and past the bullet stop finger/extractor.  This bullet side forward 0.089" or until bullet thickness of 0.34" fills gap.  (The spacing between frame wall and bullet stop is 0.34".)  This allows the second bullet to come forward some.  When closing action the top edge of the block hits the second bullet nose instead of the base of the chambering shell.  The cut is consistently measured at 0.065 from nose.  The overall solution is to:   1. Have a bullet that is ~1.70" OAL (so that when it slides past the stop, the base is still being touched by the block face) but this length does not allow 7 shell to be loaded OR   2. Use a bullet that has a metplat of not less than 0.34"(no available bullet has a nose that wide) and an OAL of 1.618" or slightly more.  OR   3.  Use large nose 500gr bullet at an OAL of 1.635".  But this leave the crimp groove of greas groove exposed and I do not care for that situation.

Hope this helps you in your investigation.  It may be as clear as mud.  If you go farther and find a different solution please let me know.

[Crazeyiven]

Fox Creek Kid-

Let me add a bit more to the description of "nose deformity".

The gouge, about the width of a penny, is in the nose and goes down, parallel with the body of the bullet, about 3/16" (which makes the gouge perpendicular to the bullet spin).  The open groove is missing lead and there is usually a bit of a sliver of lead at the bottom of the groove.

I'm thinking that the missing lead would cause a spin balance problem (the missing lead in an air pocket does) and the fact that the groove is cutting perpendicularly into the airflow as the bullet spins down range is probably going to make it pull off to the north 40 (or east or west, may south).  The little sliver sticking out in the airflow is not going to help either.

In any case, do not think it will help accuracy!

Thanks,

David

[Crazeyiven]

Black River Smith-

Thanks for your reply.  Your posts are the ones that set my interest in the 450 gr modification.

What kind of cuts are in the nose.  Are you talking like a groove cut in the nose tip or chopping off a piece of the nose?

It sound like your modification idea # two might be a good choice. 

What about having one of the custom mould makers cut one with those specifications?  I bought a couple of Paul Jones moulds and they have been great.  If you have enough data he can build about any kind of a mould needed.  I have been playing with the idea of contacting him and seeing what he would need to cut one.

Have you built and shot the #2 option?  If yes, how well does it feed?

I find having to force the lever to feed rounds unacceptable.  Afraid I'm going to break something!  I've spent this much on the rifle, a bit more for a proper mould is not that much of an issue.

Thanks again,

David

[Black River Smith]

The groove is parallel to the nose flat that is 0.065" back of the nose flat.  The upper edge of the block when closing the action cuts/put a gouge in the second bullet.  It does not cut a complete chunk out.  My cuts are not like what you have describe in the last posting.  I have not seen that at all.  That sounds like the Lane extractor/bullet stop is sticking and cutting the bullet as it is chambering. Almost impossible to happen  ??   OR  There is a burr in the barrel groove that the Lane slides through. ?  I think the second would be more likely.

No, I have not attempted #2.  I do not like large flats/metplats.  But the general idea is to have a bullet diameter =0.34" close to the nose edge.  Also, I can not justify custom molds for CAS shooting distances.  If I shoot farther than 50 yard I may look at an alternative or load one at a time.

Another fix which I think was done on some originals, would be to round over that "upper edge" on the block.  That way the bullet bounces or slides off the block rather than getting trapped and cut.

My comments about bullet shape/size are focused around the possibility of a smoother cycling by the action.  I believe, the need for a brisk return of the lever is because of the second bullets positioning.

[Crazeyiven]

Black River Smith-

Thanks for your comments.

I took some time the other night and messed around with the action.  There is a bright finished piece of metal, I assume the extractor and bullet stop, that is doing the damage.

When the lever is brought up, within the first inch of swing, the nose of the bullet jams again that piece of metal.  If I lift the guide and move the bullet off center it will, not real smoothly, go ahead a feed the round.  If it is just forced, the nose of the bullet is cut by the extractor, moving up a bit, then feeds.

I am going to take the action out and see if anything is apparent.  If not, other than sending it back, can you think of anything that I may need to look for?

As noted above, the 450 lee feeds like there is nothing in the action.  Everything else that I have tried hangs up.

Thanks again for your input.

David

[Black River Smith]

Ok, I now see on my bullet what you have been explaining.  I put a shiny new bullet through the action very slowly.  I did see the parallel lines being cut into the top side of the bullet.  I never noticed this before, because I always worked the action briskly.
The cuts are being created by the underside surface of the forked bullet guide.  Mine are very very slight, no slivers of lead are apparent.  I would remove the forked bullet guide and polish any burrs.  That should take care of that problem.

Please read the following with an open mind; understand my appreciation for an inquisitiive/analytical mind; and what is a very nice conversation going.

The overall gouging is, well how do I say this,  something that is part of this rifles action.  Now don't take this wrong I am not trying to be rude or insult your efforts.  If you are a precision shooter or a person concerned about pinpoint accuracy, well then this rifle/carbine may not be for you.

This was the 'first repeating Battle Rifle' design therefore precision was 'not' the utmost concern.  There are inherent edges that come into play to make this action work.  The designer/builder was not worried about bullet appearance when it left the barrel.  They created a gun that was ahead of it time, but not perfect.  Think what the nose of a muzzleloading mini-bullet would look like, if you could retrieve it as is, after pounding it home, when in battle.  Think what a lead bullet looks like after moving it around in battle before even loading it.  A person in battle would be happy to have 7 continuous shots rather than having to stand up after each.   I don't think that person would worry about inspecting the imperfection of the lead bullet he was about to send 'over there'.

This gun shot more rounds at a little over half the range (600 yard) of the rifled musket.  It had '''firepower'''.

I don't think sending it back is going to correct what is inherent in the gun.  I have accepted some of the marring as a given.
Just truly enjoy shooting them.

The following is an excerpt from the Manual of Arm for the Spencer written by the Spencer company.  Taken from Marcots book.
"Throw forward the guard-lever as far as it will go briskly (this was italiced in the text) and as briskly return it against the stock and ...."
It was not a gentle gun but built for battle.

My concerns about cuts are mainly about making the action work a 'little smoother' but this gun will never be a Win'73 or like grease.  Remember we are trying to make a rifle work using non-original equipment.  (ie rimfire into a centerfire.  I think that pointy bullet was for a reason)

Just wait until you are in the process of levering and you move the gun and then.... your bullet nose 'slams' into the flat edge of the barrel receiver surface. Then you jiggle the action to realign the casing to the chamber, close the action and shoot.

One alternative is to put a Stabler cut-off on the rifle and use it as a single shot.

But, at our cowboy distances the slight bullet deformation is not a real factor.

PS.  Just another thought about overall precision/accuracy.  Have you tried using the rear sight?  Its not built for accuracy

[French Jack]

Perhaps these measurements will cast some light on the issue.  I have loaded rounds using several bullets, and the best results I have had are with the following bullets.  Feed and function are the best with the bullets from a custom LBT mould.  Both the Rapine and Lyman are the same as far as feeding.  I had no luck getting the short 300 gr. from BAC to feed correctly.  I have not tried their 350 gr. as I am moulding my own and not buying any.

The LBT bullet dimensions are as follows:  Meplat-- .397, OAL-- .715, Nose length from crimp -- .385, Diameter as cast -- .515, wt. 360 gr. with 1-40 mix.
Rapine :  Meplat -- .300, OAL -- .770, Nose length from crimp -- .373, Diameter as cast -- .515, wt. 350 gr. with 1-40 mix.
Lyman:  Meplat-- .288, OAL -- .730, Nose length from crimp-- .370, Diameter as cast-- .515, wt. 340 gr. from 1/40 mix.

I have not had a problem with deformation as you have.  The bullet guide does not gouge or mark my bullets, and the following round does not get caught by the rising block.  This is probably due to shape of bullet nose/edge of block relationship as well as overall loaded round length.  I did have feeding problems with the shorter 300 gr. from BAC. 

The LBT bullet profile is that of their Long Flat Nose design, or LFN.  It has a ogive that feeds very easily throught my Spencer.
Accuracy with it has been superb.  I feel that it may be a bit shy on lube capacity, but so far has worked all right with my lube. 

Hope this helps.  BRS can give you a good deal of info, as he has delved into the particulars on loads.  I loaned him a few of my rounds loaded with the Lyman bullet to let him try them for feed and function.

[Two Flints]

Hi,

The link for LBT Moulds is http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/lbt/molds.htm 

When you place your order for a LBT Mould, just what do you order?  What are the specs when placing your order for a Mould that will work with the Spencer 56-50, or am I missing something on their home page?

Two Flints

[Black River Smith]

So, after FJ comments maybe I need to polish the bottom edge of the forked bullet guide on my rifle also.  So Crazeyiven,  I would polish that bottom edge and slightly round the lower edges.

As FJ has stated, the bullet that works best for him has the largest metplat and it OAL is near that of original measurements. Confirms what I saw and measured.  But again it is a custom mold and then out of my price range.

[French Jack]

The LBT moulds are custom made to your specs.  You have to call Veral Smith by phone, or e-mail him at :  LBTisaccuracy@imbris.net    ..  You need to tell him that you want a .515 mould (double cavity) that is the LFN profile, 360 gr. wt from pure lead, and two lube grooves and one crimp groove.  Tell him you need a nose length of .385 .  If I remember correctly, his prices when I got mine were around $80 plus postage.  I am not sure what prices are now.  You will need the RCBS mould handles (large).

[ndnchf]

This is an EXCELLENT discussion. 

I think it should be added to the SSS ORI thread for future reference.

ndnchf

[Two Flints]

Hi Ndnchf,

This discussion is still on-going and current and still on page one. I think more information will be forthcoming.  It will be added to the ORI Thread in the near future.

Thanks for your suggestion,

Two Flints

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

After reading French Jack's post above, I sent his post as a question to Veral Smith of LBT Moulds and he was kind enough to reply very quickly with the following Email reproduced here:

"Thank you Two Flints,
I'll go to the forum and look over the questions etc, and possibly leave an answer, or would even prefer that you do the answering.
I will make any weight, any diameter asked for from 22 caliber up to 8 bore.  Spencer bullets are definitely in the middle of this range.  If desired, bullets can be gas checked, or paper patched, flat based or bevel based.  If the gun of interest has a cloudy or pitted barrel it will probably shoot gas checked bullets as if the barrel were perfect. Or, lapping with the LBT lap kit will make most rough barrels as accurate as the best new premium one. Gas checks are available from Gator Checks the manufacturer being Bullet Swaging Supply, and I'd recommend the short 512 diameter checks, which are suited to bullets up to .518 diameter.  Be sure to slug the gun so the bullet fits exact.  That's what LBT is here for.
Price for a two cavity is $125, and shipping in the US currently is .$8.00.
Our website is       LBTMoulds.com             and any questions can be emailed from that site.
Delivery time for moulds is currently running about a week after receipt of the order.
Veral"

Thanks Veral Smith,  Two Flints

[Two Flints]

Personal Message from French Jack:

Did not get your e-mail yet.  It may be eaten up by gremlins.  This is in response to the PM. 
I attached a couple of pics.  Left to right:  Lyman 515139, Rapine, LBT. 

Bullet dimensions appear below the first photo.



(left)   Lyman:  Meplat-- .288, OAL -- .730, Nose length from crimp-- .370, Diameter as cast-- .515, wt. 340 gr. from 1/40 mix.

(center)  Rapine:  Meplat -- .300, OAL -- .770, Nose length from crimp -- .373, Diameter as cast --
.515, wt. 350 gr. with 1-40 mix.

(right)   LBT:  Meplat-- .397, OAL-- .715, Nose length from crimp -- .385, Diameter as cast --
.515, wt. 360 gr. with 1-40 mix.



Hope this gives everyone a look at what the shapes etc. look like.
French Jack

[Crazeyiven]

Black River Smith-

My only sensitivities are centered around worrying about asking too many questions and for too many clarifications or missing someone's point.  I have not found any of your comments (or anyone else's for that matter) insulting or anything near to it.  In fact I have seen very little of the nasty comments that seem to work their way into a lot of other sites.  Everyone's responses have been helpful.  I really appreciate the time it takes to read, understand what the other guy is trying to ask and taking the time to respond....my thanks to all! 

One other thing.  If I have asked or responded in a manner that would make one think I was being nasty, please accept my apologies.

I am totally new with the Spencer.  Know little.  In fact, I was not really sure how the bullet got from the magazine to the chamber!  I know I have a lot to learn (or unlearn) and realize that my thoughts may need to be "corrected."  I am very interested in everyone's thoughts.  'nuff said!

A bit of background.   If I want to do serious shooting I get out my sharps and custom match handloads and take off to the 300-600 yard range.  For fun shooting I like targets at different ranges (50-200 yards) that move when you hit them (not paper).  I bought this rifle for fun.  As you and others have pointed out, the sights are not for precision competition!

I am use to the scraping and dinging the bullet from the Henry.  As you point out, a bit of slamming around of the bullet is not going to really matter at these ranges.  The same is true about feeding.  You may have to do a bit of jiggling, brisk and slow lever manipulation to get a bullet in the chamber.  Patiently experimenting with bullet and OAL will eventually = fun!

However, I cannot get the Spencer to feed.  I have yet to shoot it.  At this point I would be happy with so so feeding, with brisk lever action!

I run the lever down smartly, pull it back smartly and after about an inch or two of travel, the lever stops, jammed.  Jiggling, etc does not help.  If I push down really hard on the lever the bullet will eventually gouge then jump up and try to feed.  If the jump is not too severe it will chamber, other wise it needs to be manually aligned with the chamber to allow the cartridge to enter. 

The fact that the bullet is deformed is not so much of a concern as the force that is required to get the bullet from the magazine to the chamber.  I am afraid I am going to break something!

So far I have played with the following bullets: 
·   BAC 350 gr .512 bullet (purchased) (looks like the Rapine pictured above)
·   Barnes 300 gr jacketed softpoint .510 bullet (purchased)
·   Lyman 330 gr .515 bullet (I poured) (pictured above)
·   Lee 450 gr .515 bullet (I poured) and then cut down with a x-acto razor saw
·   Lee 500 gr .515 bullet (I poured) and then cut down with a x-acto razor saw

I have messed around with 14 cases (all brass is Starline for Taylor Arms 56-50 from BAC) and the above bullets loaded into empty, unprimed cases.  So far I have had three results with the above bullets.

The BAC 350 has the widest nose.  I have tried it from 1.50 OAL to 1.63 OAL.  These bullets will not feed.  These are the ones that have the cut in nose that I described earlier in the post.  The gouge starts in about the middle of the metplat and comes down the side of the bullet about 3/16".  It leave a big groove of missing lead and a small spur of lead sticking out at the bottom of the groove.  It is about as wide as a penny.  This "feeding" required some SERIOUS forcing of the lever.  Length did not seem to make any change in the force required to get the bullet to feed.  In lieu of forcing the lever the only way to get them out is to remove the mag and dump them out.

The Barnes 300 is probably going to be a mistake.  I had assumed, before I received the gun, that the bore was .510 and the .512 was referring to the bullet diameter (like my 50-90).  I had purchased these to use to break in the barrel.  Although I have not yet slugged the bore, I am assuming it is going to be around .512.  I do not think that .002 underbore will do much for break in.  Also, even though I have cut off a portion of the bottom of the Lyman setting die, it still will not crimp this bullet.  Without a good crimp most smokeless powder does not perform at optimum.

The Lyman 330 I have only tried at a OAL of 1.52 – 1.56.  I another post Matt45 had made a couple of suggestions.  One, clean and grease the high friction points in the action.  He also indicated that he had had real good luck with the Lyman bullet set at the above OALs.  The grease suggestion was super.  The action really flys now.  However, I had no luck with the bullet feed.  I did not force the action.  Brisk locked it up before the lever came back and inch.  Only way to get them out was to pull the mag and dump them.  However, I did find the cut that you mentioned earlier in this post.  About a ¼ inch down the bullet, parallel with the nose flat was a crease that fit your description.  I have not yet tried moving the bullet out to closer to the 1.62 length.

The cut down Lee 450 bullet (at 1.62 OAL) was a dream.  They fed through the action like it was empty!  Only thing that bothers me is that they are a bit pointy.  Somewhere someone mentioned feed proof primers.  I have been tempted to try them.  It seems that you are the only one who as shot them?  No problems?  Your newer posts seems to drop these as an option.

The last was the cut down Lee 500 bullet.  I tried  these at various OALs.  Set at 1.62 OAL they fed a bit better than the BAC noted above.  With a brisk down stroke and a forcefully brisk up stroke the bullet would still gouge, about ½ as bad as the BAC, but would feed.

Tomorrow I will try to get a photo posted of the nose gouge I am getting.

During all of this I have not noticed the bullet guide doing anything to the bullet.  The only reason I have messed with the bullet guide at all was just to get access to the bullet and ejector stud.  I will look again.

A couple of questions.  As the lever starts back up, should be ejector (against which the nose of the bullet is held) move too or start to drop?

Also, just in front of the ejector is a crescent shaped bright finished piece of metal that does not seem to move at all.  Anyone know what it is or what it does?  If it were a bit taller it would appear that the nose of the bullet might clear the ejector and feed.

There are those that have used each of the bullets above and have had them feed successfully.  I read all these posts about bullet, OAL, feeding, etc. and the success different folks have and I cannot help but think that I am missing something really basic or that I am omitting some fact(s) that are key to be problem.

So, that said, all suggestions, comments, humor appreciated.  I assume all responses are aimed at helping and will be taken as such. 

Again, thanks to all. 

[French Jack]

Ivan--  in response to your last post, the sharp pointed hook shaped piece in the front of the breechblock is the Lane extractor.  It should ride about 3/16 of an inch above the lower edge of the chamber when it meets the chamber.  As the block rises, the extractor is forced down into the block by the extractor groove at the base of the chamber.  It would appear that perhaps you may be having some thing go wrong here, as you refer to the semicircular piece of metal behind it.(the bullet feed ramp)  I suspect that the extractor may not be dropping at the correct time to allow the bullet to feed as the block and the ramp are moving it toward the chamber mouth. 

You might try polishing the extractor to insure that it does not trap the bullet nose, and that it is withdrawn properly to allow the bullet nose to enter the chamber. 

If this does not help the situation, I propose that you have a defective rifle, and I would return it to Taylor's or whomever you got it from it from with a request for repair or replacement.

[Black River Smith]

Crazeyiven,

Believe me you did not say anything offensive.  I just did not want to sound that way towards you.  After reading your deeper explanation I would have to agree with you and FJ, there maybe or there are other issues. 

There is a spring under the Lane extractor.  This should force it to remain in an extended position.  Push down on the hook point.   The point moves rearward and down, when release it should return with light force and remain up.  No floppy movement at all.   Without a bullet in gun, cycle the action.  When returning lever, the lane extractor should totally clear the forked cut in the forked bullet guide.  Never touching the underside or moving it.  Right??

With cut 500 gr bullet in the mag and the lever worked very slowly there is not the least bit of sticking.  Moving the lever downward and slowly, the bullet eventually pops into space and is stopped by bullet stop/ forked guide. Returning the lever, the lead bullet is first moved forward with nose against the lane extractor, then it is tipped upward by the humpy statioary guide.  As that happens the nose does slide up the edge of the lane extractor, then aligns over the top of it, but I see no deep cutting.  The forked guide then starts to put downward pressure on the bullet nose, this is when the parallel cutting starts.  When lead clears forked guide and brass casing reaches the edge of forked guide, the lead bullet rests on pointy top edge of lane extractor.   As rotation of block/lever continues this then guides lead into the chamber mouth and aligns bullet/casing to chamber as extractor slides in groove under barrel/receiver.  The back of block just starts to push casing almost straight and forward into chamber.  When rim clears forked guide the bullet/casing literally 'jumps' into chamber and block just follows it and clamps down.

All of this action is smooth with only one bullet in the mag.  But when two bullet are present, 'slow' movement is ok for drop and the first inch or so of return.  It is easy and works.   But then it becomes hard and difficult and even totally stops if movement is keep at a slow pace.  This is 'when' and 'because' the second lead bullet gets pinched and cut by the top edge of the block.  The bullets are not perfect in length or bullet is not perfect shape/pattern.

The returning motion must be brisk and performed in one fluid continuous motion or else it 'jams'.

The cut 450 gr bullet overcomes some of the inherent return problems.  But because of the small nose I would not tell anyone or advise anyone to use it.  Liability, liability, liability.  No problems but that may not work for every one.

[Crazeyiven]

French Jack-

Thanks for the response-

It seems that the action as you describe it is working.  When it jams, the nose of the bullet is hard against the tip of the extractor.  I am not sure if it is jamming due to being lodged up against the extractor or if perhaps the back of the action is stuck on another bullet or the mag feed plug.

I am going to print this out and work through it tonight and see what I come up with.  Hoping I do not have to send anything back!

Thanks again,

David