First field tests with the new EPP-45 bullet and Cowboy 45 Special brass.

[Dick Dastardly]

I posted this on the SASS wire and had to re-do it because it got pulled.  I'm not trying to post a commercial, just facts.

Both this brass and bullet are very new.  There's not much real test result information available.  I was trying to post what I'd found out after shooting some.  I'd shot EPPs prototypes, but these are the first out of the new custom molds.

Here it is again, I hope I got it right this time.  This is no commercial.  If additional data or information is needed you can contact me by email

rrhody@spwl.net

I shot over an Ohler 33 Chronograph with the start screen Ten feet from the muzzle and a Four foot screen spacing.

The gun(s) used are Ruger Old Armys with both Kirst Konverter 45 Colt cylinders and original Ruger Old Army C&B cylinders.

The bullets are the new EPP-UG 45 Cal 150 grain Big Lube™ bullets cast from the latest custom LEE Six cavity Pro molds.  They weigh 153 grains and carry 2 grains of lube.

The brass for the cartridge test is the new Cowboy 45 Special primed with CCI large pistol primers.  The cartridge portion of the test was shot with ROAs and Kirst Konverter 45 Colt cylinders.

The load was genuine FFFg black powder.  I won't say how much because that may have been why my former post was pulled.  The load was compressed with no fillers used.

The average velocity for the Cowboy 45 Special/EPP-UG ammo was 840 fps.

The standard deviation was 9 fps

Recoil was very light, recovery quick, fouling minimal and cleanup fast and easy.

The same test was shot with the Ruger Old Armys and the original C&B cylinders.  The EPP-UG 45 150 grains were developed to emulate round ball 44 Cal C&B performance with need to fiddle around with wads, cookies or over ball grease.  The bullets are simply lube/sized and kept 5ea. in vials till needed.

The average velocity for the C&B test with the same ROAs as used in the above test was 820 fps.

The standard deviation was 12 fps

Group sizes at 25 yards with both was under Two inches with slightly smaller groups coming from the cartridge tests.

This is a bullet that was designed by the late great El Paso Pete to emulate round ball performance in a true Big Lube™ bullet.  It has all the benefits of a true Big Lube™ design and shoots great out of 45 Colt guns.

DD-DLoS

[Adirondack Jack]

Howdy, DD,  (any bambis in the freezer?)

Lemme post this here as well:

I got similar results with 777.

Oh, before I forget, the slight rebate on the base made loading the EPP bullet a snap. Seating stubby bullets can be a pain, with a tendency to go crooked and shave lead. These bullets start straight and I had zero shaved lead issues in the dillon.

This 150 gr bullet likes to be run in the 820 fps range in the 5.5 inch rugers, which puts it right about on par with 158 gr .38s in factory cowboy loads. Nice shooter, accurate, guns didn't crud up at all (I lubed em with orange magic for 777) what more can ya want?

I was really tickled when I tried em in the Marlin conversion by Spur. When he had the rifle, I told Spur this bullet was coming out, and he made adjustments to the carrier geometry that allow for a wide range of OAL from under one inch to 1.225 inches. If memory serves, this round with the EPP bullet comes in right around 1.075 OAL, and the Marlin fed it flawlessly, and printed VERY well, at right around 1070 fps.

This combination of bullet, brass and rifle really is FUN!

Now, as a post script, for the lovers of the toggle links, I just got word that the carriers to run Cowboy .45 Specials in  '60s, as well as '66/'73s will be available very soon.  The prototypes ran very well, and an initial CNC "production prototype" run is on the way.  Once they are done, three of us will test them thoroughly before thy are released, but the indications are they are gonna work just fine.  Coupled with Spur's marlin conversion, this rounds out the ability to use the round.

I can expect the Cowboy .45 Special, with the EPP/UG 45-150 will be showing up in pistols and rifles at a range near you pretty soon.

In the rifle it is a real hoot.  I could see the single ragged hole in the paper target at 15 yards enlarge, as the sights never moved.

[Mason Stillwell]

As of today I have one of these fine moulds on order. I cannot wait.

Mason

[Adirondack Jack]

Here's somethin' I don't understand, but I figured out a way around it anyways.

When I tested the EPP-UG in the Cowboy .45 Special Marlin, it ran fine.  Then last night I loaded up some more, and they didn't always wanna cycle smoothly, sometimes catching on the rim and turning sideways in the chamber mouth.  I dunno why that is exactly.  One batch worked, the next didn't, with no die adjustments.  In any event, it's no good.

So, I tried something a hair unorthodox.  I loaded em a little long, and crimped em just behind the front driving band, into the lube groove.  Now I realize that leaves a "false crimp" wherethe crimp is simply tucking the brass in against the lube, and only the rear driving band in the cases, but I don't figure that is any problem with BP or 777,and might be ok with 700X as well.  They feed slick as can be, fast or slow, so the test is gonna be in the shooting.  Let ya know later on today.

[Biermeister]

Howdy!
   Has anybody tried these in a 72 Open top in .45 S&W? The case length of the .45 S&W I believe is 1.100. The loaded overall length of the Cowboy Special and the EPP bullet is 1.075. That would sure save on black powder or App. I will be placing an order soon for both the brass and the mould. That 150 grain bullet should help my 58's and the 72 shoot to the POA as they all shoot 2-3" high with 200 grain RNFP. Good job Dick Dastardly and Adirondack Jack!

                                                            Biermeister

[Dick Dastardly]

I can't see any reason why these bullets and brass wouldn't work just fine with an appropriate powder charge in your guns.  The Schofield, 45 Colt and Cowboy 45 Special all fit the same chambers.  It should work fine.

DD-DLoS

[Adirondack Jack]

Biermeister, I'm getting good reports from a variety of Cap and Ball conversion shooters with the Cowboy .45 Specials.  One feller who shoots frontiersman in matches says he is loading Cowboy .45 Specials in a conversion cylinder for practice, which allows a bunch more shooting in a short time.  He's been using round ball loads, but the EPP bullet should load just about like a round ball load.

More load testing.

FWIW, I ran my test in the Spur Special Marlin with the Cowboy .45 Specials loaded long to get em to feed better.  They were sometimes tripping on the case mouth, but by crimping GENTLY behind the forward driving band (just enough to tuck the lip of the brass in and prevent bullet setback in the mag tube), the forward driving band, with it's nice "air dam" shoulder, helped em feed slicker than frog snot.

So, how did it shoot?  SLAMMIN' !!!

Loaded with 5.0 grains of 700X, they clocked an average speed of 958 FPS with an extreme spread of NINE!  Of course at only 15 yards (I was mostly interested in consistency) they went into one hole.  The same charge crimped over the shoulder runs 830 fps in the pistols, so I expect the slightly longer OAL of the long crimp method will slow that a hair, but I also expect good performance in the pistols.

Might be that loading method actually improves accuracy, as the rather fragile forward driving band is left proud of the case and not subject to neck tension or crimp.  777 Tests will follow.

My goal is to have ONE BULLET for rifle and pistol, 777 or smokeless for next year.  If the 150 EPP is the answer, it's gonna save on lead for sure, and make casting and keeping em in stock easy.  Further, the EPP, with the slightly rebated base, sizes slick in the Lyman sizer, eliminating fumbling common to short bullets.

One side effect of the 150, my 93 lb, 12 year old son shot some of the 5 grain 700X loads out of one of my Big Vaqueros today.  First he tried resting his forearm against a tree and shooting for accuracy at 10 yards.  He shot quarter size spots on a target as I pointed em out to him.

Then he tried traditional, and was still pretty well centered on the plate, shooting slow, but I noticed he was pulling em left.

So he says "I got one left, lemme try one hand"  Now this is a 5.5 inch "old style" vaquero, with flat bottom grips that are made for my big hands. It's a pretty good mitt full of horse pistol by any measure.  He gets himself comfy in duelist stance, pops off the last 830 fps 150 EPP, and drives it right in the middle of the target.  I'm watching, and he's not suffering any issues related to recoil, no grip disturbance, nothing.  He's gotta wait till '08 to be legal for SASS in NY, but by then I expect him to START OFF shooting FC duelist with .45s, using my guns, including the marlin, rugers, and Chicom 12 ga coach gun with light loads.

[Adirondack Jack]

Here's a photo of the EPP bullet, and a loaded round.  Note the unorthodox seat/crimp method.  While seeking to overcome a feeding glitch in the Spur Special Marlin with the EPP crimped over the shoulder (case mouth sometimes caught on chamber mouth), I stumbled onto the most consistent shooting smokeless load yet (should work great with 777 or BP also).  It also feeds slick in the Marlin.



I had concerns about the "false crimp", where the taper crimp only eases the case mouth into the lube, but using the FCD I have enough case tension that the forward driving band, standing proud of the case and not crimped, may well be a PLUS in the accuracy department.  I got an ES of NINE with 700x in my "I don't wanna clean guns, let's try it with smokeless" test.

It's kinda a cross breed between a heeled bullet and a normal seat/crimp method

Whooda thunk?

[Dick Dastardly]

Hey AJ,  That's exactly what my Cowboy 45 Special/EPP-UG ammo looks like.  That front driving band is just right standing proud.  The bullet holds tight and the lube stays clean.  I did note that you must have gotten some time at the casting pot cuz your bullets have the small flat metplat.  My load is 1.3cc of FFFg Holy Black and a CCI Large Pistol primer under the EPP-UG in your brass.  They clock 840 fps out of my ROAs with Kirst Konverters.  For some reason the same load shot out of the C&B cylinders runs about 20 fps slower.  Both are very consistant and accurate.  Now, I can shoot both Frontier Cartridge and Frontiersman with the same guns, loads and bullets if I want to.  I'll be doin' it with a ROA in each hand, GF style, when it's allowed.

DD-DLoS

[Adirondack Jack]

I ran off some bullets the first night I got the mold.  I did em in a hurry before I had to go somewhere.  I'm about run out, so probably tomorrow I'll fire the pot and make a big batch (before the garage gets too cold to work in).

The mold works perfectly.  No fiddling around like I have with some molds.  Just smoked it up with a couple of stick matches, and rock n roll.

[rbertalotto]

Lets bring this old post back from the dead!

I recently bought a set of 1858 Remingtons, 5.5" with conversion cylinder in 45LC.

I bought a bunch of Cowboy 45 Spl brass from Jack and a mold for the 170grain 45-SLIM bullet from Dick D.



I shot a couple of loads with Trail Boss and the accuracy was fantastic. Much better than the 200g bullets I tried a few days ago.

I bought some Blackhorn 209 powder. I used the load data available from Blackhorn for 45LC cartridges. Worked beautifully. Lots of smoke and sparks and a hell of a fireball. But near zero clean up! Same amount of residue as smokeless powder. This stuff isn't allowed in BP shooting in CAS, but it is very period correct as a "Transition" powder. Between BP and what we know today as smokeless.

Anyways, I loaded up 12g of Blackhorn in the CB45 brass with the 45-SLIM bullet and heeaded to the range and just as I got there it started pouring. It will have to wait until tomorrow.

So, my reason for resurrecting this thread is has anyone else used Blackhorn in the CB45?

Any other loads for the 45-SLIM bullet in this brass?

Any other observations since 2006!

Thanks

BTW, here is a picture of the CB45 next to a 45LC and the 45-SLIM bullet in front of a 200g and a 255g Lee.

[Dick Dastardly]

I just ordered another 500 pieces of Cowboy 45 Special brass from AJ.  I intend to load them with 45SLIM bullets over 1.3cc Schuetzen FFFg Genuine Powder.  I had great luck with this ammo last season.  Shot several clean matches with it.  I shoot these out of either my 1860 open tops or RVs, both braces with Kirst Konverter cylinders.  These are very accurate bullets and all that lube sure keeps the fouling soft.

DD-MDA

[rbertalotto]

Update on 1858 Remington Conversions with Cowboy 45 Spl and 45-SLIM bullets....

Took the 1858 to the range today.

CBN45 - 45 SLIM - 12g Blackhorn 209...............GREAT accuracy and perfect POA at 25 feet. I couldn't be more pleased. Both revolvers performed superbly.



The Blackhorn powder is wonderful. Lots of great smoke and sparks with a very impressive fireball, but near zero clean up. Same cleanup as smokeless powder. I know it will not be legal in CAS as black powder, but it will be fun in the other classes. I sure wish it wasn't $30 for 10oz!

I also loaded 4g of Trai Boss with similar results:



This load had a bit more recoil, but nothing to get excited about. Both loads were in the area of a 38 special in the recoil department.